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Best phone in fringe areas

Discussion in 'alt.cellular.verizon' started by Jeff P., Sep 22, 2003.

  1. Al Klein

    Al Klein Guest

    On Mon, 22 Sep 2003 22:56:10 -0500, "Jon Clark" <jsclark@visi.com>
    posted in alt.cellular.verizon:

    >Well, yes and no. CDMA has a maximum power level (by design) of 200 mW.
    >Analog (AMPS) is allowed to transmit at up to 600mW on hanheld phones and 3W
    >for installed / bag phones (FCC rules).


    >However, CDMA uses advanced error correction schemes that allow the DSP's to
    >eek out as much range at 200 mW as AMPS does at 600 (sometimes even a little
    >more). The catch: it has to be a 'naked' cell (i.e. you have to be the only
    >user on it), due to the well-documented phenomena of CDMA "cell breathing."
    >On a loaded cell, the AMPS channels will generally out-reach the CDMA
    >coverage based on how heavily loaded the CDMA carrier is.


    >I'm sure someone can probably explain it in more depth - but this is how I
    >understand it works in practice...


    Cell breathing isn't a problem until the cell is almost overloaded
    (the "underwater" sound).

    For all practical purposes a 200mw CDMA phone and a 600mw analog phone
    have the same range - for clean signal. But you can still use an
    analog phone when it's almost all static - the human brain is a much
    better signal integrator than the electronics in a phone.

    And if you're using a 3 watt phone you increase the range in 2 ways -
    it's 5 times the signal strength and, if you're out in the boonies -
    and you know what goes on - you're using an external antenna, so
    that's about another 5 times the signal, in both directions.

    (For the purists, that's 5db gain in the antenna itself, a little gain
    between an isotropic and a stub on the handset [or maybe more than "a
    little"], and about another 5db gain from the antenna being vertical
    on the roof of the car as opposed to being buried inside the car at
    who knows what angle.)



    › See More: Best phone in fringe areas
  2. Larry W4CSC

    Larry W4CSC Guest

    Any time you boys want a little CDMA/AMPS horserace, meet me at the
    Shotgun department at the Oakbrook WalMart, Summerville, SC, where
    CDMA phones all read DEAD while I'm answering my customers on Verizon
    AMPS from the only tower available about 8 miles away.

    We can also take a little ride away from the interstates, if you like.
    I'll keep it fair and leave the bagphone on the rubber duckie antenna,
    no tricks.....(c;



    On Mon, 22 Sep 2003 22:56:10 -0500, "Jon Clark" <jsclark@visi.com>
    wrote:

    >Well, yes and no. CDMA has a maximum power level (by design) of 200 mW.
    >Analog (AMPS) is allowed to transmit at up to 600mW on hanheld phones and 3W
    >for installed / bag phones (FCC rules).
    >
    >However, CDMA uses advanced error correction schemes that allow the DSP's to
    >eek out as much range at 200 mW as AMPS does at 600 (sometimes even a little
    >more). The catch: it has to be a 'naked' cell (i.e. you have to be the only
    >user on it), due to the well-documented phenomena of CDMA "cell breathing."
    >On a loaded cell, the AMPS channels will generally out-reach the CDMA
    >coverage based on how heavily loaded the CDMA carrier is.
    >
    >I'm sure someone can probably explain it in more depth - but this is how I
    >understand it works in practice...
    >
    >-Jon
    >
    >"Al Klein" <rukbat@pern.org> wrote in message
    >news:537vmvg8nvrvhjsu09j0ih0dvk2iapqgs1@Pern.rk...
    >> On Mon, 22 Sep 2003 17:46:19 -0000, planenospam@usa.com (p lane)
    >> posted in alt.cellular.verizon:
    >>
    >> >I hate to pour water on you, but in a true fringe area, with any
    >> >handheld, you are SOL-- i am in such an area, and regularly use a
    >> >samsung tri mode,also have a sanyo 4900 which is great on the sprint
    >> >service and actually works half way decently with analog--but i still
    >> >maintain an old moto install analog which is the only thing which will
    >> >work in the boonies. I am sure others will tell you the same
    >> >thing---and even the handheld analog won't do it either---takes the
    >> >power and the external antenna---if I'm not mistaken, even the gm onstar
    >> >thing is analog---wonder why

    >>
    >> Analog doesn't increase the range - but the 3 watt transmitter sure
    >> does.

    >
    >



    Larry W4CSC

    3600 planes with transponders are burning 8-10 million
    gallons of kerosene per hour over the USA. R-12 car air
    conditioners are responsible for the ozone hole, right?
  3. Yagi Bear

    Yagi Bear Guest

    On Wed, 24 Sep 2003 01:09:28 GMT, Al Klein <rukbat@pern.org> wrote:

    >On Tue, 23 Sep 2003 14:07:54 GMT, "Rich Cacace" <richcacace-REMOVE TO
    >REPLY-@optonline.net> posted in alt.cellular.verizon:
    >
    >>The original poster said Startac 7867W & my friend has an old Startac 7868W.

    >
    >Oops. My typo in my eyes.
    >
    >>Is there any difference between the performance & what do you think it's
    >>worth?

    >
    >Big difference. Go for the 7868.


    If it please you, could you be more specific? Also, how do the
    7867/7868 compare to the various Timeport models as goes RF
    capability? I need to hit a tower that's about 50 miles away across
    Lake Superior, and both the Nokia 3585i and Kyocera 2325 that I have
    tried just baaaaaarely hook up. Many other phones have not measured
    up. Yes I know about external antennas and bag phones, but I carry
    enough crap around with me in the woods as it is. Thanks for any help
    you can spare.

    P.S Larry W4CSC: _50 miles_ in digital or analog! Must be the
    freshwater. :eek:)

    Steve

    Smelberg@isd.net
  4. Male Bomb

    Male Bomb Guest

    Yagi Bear <fonebone@mad.not> wrote in article
    <r7s0nvk28d2gh45i6s2ridpv9hfqtff8ue@4ax.com>:
    > On Wed, 24 Sep 2003 01:09:28 GMT, Al Klein <rukbat@pern.org> wrote:
    >
    > >On Tue, 23 Sep 2003 14:07:54 GMT, "Rich Cacace" <richcacace-REMOVE TO
    > >REPLY-@optonline.net> posted in alt.cellular.verizon:
    > >
    > >>The original poster said Startac 7867W & my friend has an old Startac 7868W.

    > >
    > >Oops. My typo in my eyes.
    > >
    > >>Is there any difference between the performance & what do you think it's
    > >>worth?

    > >
    > >Big difference. Go for the 7868.

    >
    > If it please you, could you be more specific? Also, how do the
    > 7867/7868 compare to the various Timeport models as goes RF
    > capability? I need to hit a tower that's about 50 miles away across
    > Lake Superior, and both the Nokia 3585i and Kyocera 2325 that I have
    > tried just baaaaaarely hook up. Many other phones have not measured
    > up. Yes I know about external antennas and bag phones, but I carry
    > enough crap around with me in the woods as it is. Thanks for any help
    > you can spare.
    >
    > P.S Larry W4CSC: _50 miles_ in digital or analog! Must be the
    > freshwater. :eek:)


    Nah, this must be bullshit Larry says the "toy phones" are good for only
    2 miles


    [posted via phonescoop.com]
  5. Yagi Bear

    Yagi Bear Guest

    On Wed, 24 Sep 2003 06:30:00 -0000, malebomb@comcast.net (Male Bomb)
    wrote:

    >
    >
    >Yagi Bear <fonebone@mad.not> wrote in article
    ><r7s0nvk28d2gh45i6s2ridpv9hfqtff8ue@4ax.com>:
    >> On Wed, 24 Sep 2003 01:09:28 GMT, Al Klein <rukbat@pern.org> wrote:
    >>


    <snipped for brevity>

    >>
    >> P.S Larry W4CSC: _50 miles_ in digital or analog! Must be the
    >> freshwater. :eek:)

    >
    >Nah, this must be bullshit Larry says the "toy phones" are good for only
    >2 miles
    >


    No, seriously. I have to stand on the beach, with the phone held "just
    so", and yes it _is_ kinda fuzzy. I tells ya the display actually says
    "Verizon" with or without a "D" on the Nokia. I'm nearly on the tip of
    the Wisconsin Peninsula, amidst the Apostle Islands, so the only
    Verizon towers available to me are umpty miles away on the North
    Shore, or nearly as many miles away in (I think) Brule, Wi. over a
    large hill. The nearest tower of any kind is Alltel analog on Madeline
    Island (dumbest placement I've ever seen), about 8 mi. away over a
    similarly large hill. If I roam to it (standing in the back yard
    instead of on the beach), I get slightly better signal than the
    Verizon tower complete with roaming fees. I'd be happy to invite any
    of you folks to witness this strange phenomenon for yourselves, but I
    can assume that few would be willing to make the trip. My situation
    truly defines "fringe area".

    Steve


    >
    >[posted via phonescoop.com]
  6. Mark Allread

    Mark Allread Guest

    On Wed, 24 Sep 2003 02:25:41 GMT, Yagi Bear <fonebone@mad.not> wrote:

    > P.S Larry W4CSC: _50 miles_ in digital or analog! Must be the
    > freshwater. :eek:)


    I'm not surprised. I've was once hit with Wisconsin roaming
    charges when I used my old Nokia 2180 in Muskegon, MI. The signal
    across 80 mi of Lake Michigan was stronger than that coming through
    the dunes, apparently.

    --
    Mark
  7. Al Klein

    Al Klein Guest

    On Wed, 24 Sep 2003 02:25:41 GMT, Yagi Bear <fonebone@mad.not> posted
    in alt.cellular.verizon:

    >If it please you, could you be more specific?


    Never owned a 7867 so all I could do is repeat what I've seen here.
    Better let people who have used both answer that.

    Also, how do the
    >7867/7868 compare to the various Timeport models as goes RF
    >capability?


    The Timeport is a 7868 in a pretty case with a pretty display.

    > I need to hit a tower that's about 50 miles away across
    >Lake Superior, and both the Nokia 3585i and Kyocera 2325 that I have
    >tried just baaaaaarely hook up. Many other phones have not measured
    >up. Yes I know about external antennas and bag phones, but I carry
    >enough crap around with me in the woods as it is. Thanks for any help
    >you can spare.


    Fifty miles on 800 MHz? Not without a decent external antenna, and
    that's iffy. Maybe with a full-powered mobile and a 6db antenna on
    the roof. That's a decent haul even at 150 MHz.

    The 7868 has full (600mw) power in analog, so that's about the best
    you're going to get from a handset.
  8. Dave Markson

    Dave Markson Guest

    > Also, how do the 7867/7868 compare to the various Timeport models
    > as goes RF capability?


    I have both the ST7868 and the P8767.

    I've compared both phones in test mode over several months.

    They are almost identical at 800 MHz, although my P8767 has a very slight edge
    (maybe 1 dBm) over the 7868. Same with the antenna up or antenna down.

    At 1900 MHz, the P8767 is superior to the 7868 (by 3 or 4 dBm) with the antenna
    all the way down or all the way up. For some strange reason my 7868 does
    extremely well with the antenna half way out (1 or 2 dBm better than the P8767),
    but obviously it does not stay that way very well.

    I've been waiting to get a smaller phone but am not willing to sacrifice *ANY*
    RF capability. I'm still waiting.
    --
    Dave
    Visit my New England Cell Phone Page at
    http://markson.net/cell_phones.htm
    (to reply take out the "remove" in my e-mail)
  9. p lane

    p lane Guest

    I may be horribly misinformed, but when I was using a repeater system
    (before wide cellular service) there was a rule of thumb, that range
    (Line of sight range) and line of sight is all you will have at 800 mh,
    the max is the square root of the height of the antenna above average
    terrain---it's like the question and answer about how far you can see
    when you look out to sea--there probably is some reflection from the
    water--that's something I don't know.


    However, about 2-3 months ago some one was posting about several miles
    coverage off the east coast, using analog etc..


    Al Klein <rukbat@pern.org> wrote in article
    <t7d4nvg55m9r94hs0948q7rhqcen2tdmuv@Pern.rk>:
    > On Wed, 24 Sep 2003 02:25:41 GMT, Yagi Bear <fonebone@mad.not> posted
    > in alt.cellular.verizon:
    >
    > >If it please you, could you be more specific?

    >
    > Never owned a 7867 so all I could do is repeat what I've seen here.
    > Better let people who have used both answer that.
    >
    > Also, how do the
    > >7867/7868 compare to the various Timeport models as goes RF
    > >capability?

    >
    > The Timeport is a 7868 in a pretty case with a pretty display.
    >
    > > I need to hit a tower that's about 50 miles away across
    > >Lake Superior, and both the Nokia 3585i and Kyocera 2325 that I have
    > >tried just baaaaaarely hook up. Many other phones have not measured
    > >up. Yes I know about external antennas and bag phones, but I carry
    > >enough crap around with me in the woods as it is. Thanks for any help
    > >you can spare.

    >
    > Fifty miles on 800 MHz? Not without a decent external antenna, and
    > that's iffy. Maybe with a full-powered mobile and a 6db antenna on
    > the roof. That's a decent haul even at 150 MHz.
    >
    > The 7868 has full (600mw) power in analog, so that's about the best
    > you're going to get from a handset.


    [posted via phonescoop.com]
  10. Al Klein

    Al Klein Guest

    On Thu, 25 Sep 2003 02:10:20 -0000, planenospam@usa.com (p lane)
    posted in alt.cellular.verizon:

    >However, about 2-3 months ago some one was posting about several miles
    >coverage off the east coast, using analog etc..


    You can always get reflection, ducting, scatter, maybe even aurora
    effects, etc. That doesn't change the fact that at VHF and above you
    can only count on line of sight.
  11. Yagi Bear

    Yagi Bear Guest

    On Thu, 25 Sep 2003 01:29:39 GMT, Dave Markson
    <dave@markson.remove.net> wrote:

    >> Also, how do the 7867/7868 compare to the various Timeport models
    >> as goes RF capability?

    >
    >I have both the ST7868 and the P8767.
    >
    >I've compared both phones in test mode over several months.
    >
    >They are almost identical at 800 MHz, although my P8767 has a very slight edge
    >(maybe 1 dBm) over the 7868. Same with the antenna up or antenna down.
    >
    >At 1900 MHz, the P8767 is superior to the 7868 (by 3 or 4 dBm) with the antenna
    >all the way down or all the way up. For some strange reason my 7868 does
    >extremely well with the antenna half way out (1 or 2 dBm better than the P8767),
    >but obviously it does not stay that way very well.
    >
    >I've been waiting to get a smaller phone but am not willing to sacrifice *ANY*
    >RF capability. I'm still waiting.


    Thanks, Dave. This is exactly the info I was looking for. I've been
    shopping Ebay for a 7868, but now I guess I'll be looking for a
    Timeport.

    Steve

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