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cell phone use in hospitals

Discussion in 'alt.cellular.verizon' started by maryann, Nov 18, 2003.

  1. Al Klein

    Al Klein Guest

    On Wed, 19 Nov 2003 12:39:11 -0800, "Peter Pan"
    <Marcs1102NOSPAM@Hotmail.com> posted in alt.cellular.verizon:

    >"Lawrence G. Mayka" <lgmayka000@ameritech.net> wrote in message
    >news:dhQub.873$aw2.595468@newssrv26.news.prodigy.com...


    >> More importantly, though, any such interference argument is (a) hypothetical
    >> unless evidence is presented, and (b) not applicable to CDMA (spread
    >> spectrum), which is a military-class technology designed to be practically
    >> indetectible to any equipment not specifically designed to detect it.


    >Sorry Lawrence, you are totally off your rocker on this one. Whenever my
    >friend came over with his cell phone I knew he was there before he came to
    >the door cause the radio and TV would start getting interference every few
    >minutes from his cell phone checking in


    Which would make the phone TDMA, which is what Lawrence said.



    › See More: cell phone use in hospitals
  2. Al Klein

    Al Klein Guest

    On Wed, 19 Nov 2003 23:36:03 GMT, "John Eckart" <JEckart@mail.com>
    posted in alt.cellular.verizon:

    >Doesn't CDMA use spread-spectrum technology which transmits on more than one frequency at a time? So would that, in itself, cause more interference?


    No, it would cause less to some devices and the same amount to the
    rest.

    >Just because you can *hear* TDMA better over a speaker than CDMA doesn't necessarily mean that it causes *more* interference. The two modes are still radiating energy which are capable of causing interference to electronic equipment.


    The sensitivity of devices to interference depends on peak power, not
    average power, making TDMA much more capable of interfering.

    >One possible reason why some hospitals allow cell phones while others don't could be because some hospitals could be using older equipment which may be more susceptible to RFI while other hospitals with newer equipment can handle it better due to its bet

    ter electronics, design and shielding.

    Hospitals don't test their equipment for susceptibility to
    interference to cell phones, so they wouldn't know.
  3. Al Klein

    Al Klein Guest

    On Wed, 19 Nov 2003 21:35:26 GMT, "Real Estate Agent"
    <spamblockCaryRealtor@nc.rr.com> posted in alt.cellular.verizon:

    >Like another contributor to these forums, I see a lot of communication
    >devices carried by hospital employees. However, they appear to be VHF
    >commercial walkie-talkie units.


    The nearby university hospital uses ordinary cellular phones for the
    staff, with repeater throughout the building, which is quite large.

    >And, as someone pointed out, shielding makes it a moot point in many areas
    >of a medical facility. I volunter as a driver for the American Cancer
    >Society, and frequently am at the radiation department. Signals are dismal.


    Because the radiation areas are heavily shielded. I've used two-way
    radios in hospitals (operating in the same 800 MHz band as cellular
    phones) with very little problem.
  4. Al Klein

    Al Klein Guest

    On Wed, 19 Nov 2003 22:59:22 GMT, Mark Kim <please@dont.spam.me>
    posted in alt.cellular.verizon:

    >bit unreligious IMO. Entering a hospital, you usually supposed to turn
    >the Cell Phone off since Cell Phones uses Microwave Transmissions


    Which has what to do with hospitals? Are you afraid the patients will
    be cooked?
  5. Al Klein

    Al Klein Guest

    On Wed, 19 Nov 2003 17:44:42 -0600, Steven J Sobol
    <sjsobol@JustThe.net> posted in alt.cellular.verizon:

    >In alt.cellular John Eckart <JEckart@mail.com> wrote:


    >> Anyone know of any other places where you can't use cell phones, like
    >> missile silos or something?


    >Blasting areas, where the crews typically use radio-controlled detonators.


    Even with a wired blasting cap, one bit of the wrong energy at the
    wrong time and people die. And RF can trigger a blasting cap.
  6. "Al Klein" <rukbat@pern.org> wrote in message
    news:5v9orvgh4ekl3q5v76v8ticp5v7n9pq7o0@Pern.rk...
    > On Wed, 19 Nov 2003 09:29:06 -0500, "Thomas M. Goethe"
    > <xspamgoethe11xxxxxx@lycos.com> posted in alt.cellular.verizon:
    >
    > > The thing that is so funny is getting screeched at by one hospital
    > >worker for merely having one (that was indeed turned off) as two others

    in
    > >the same area are using theirs. When I asked, I was told they were

    "special"
    > >ones that are safe. Hmm, looked just like the ones I had.

    >
    > They may be "intrinsically safe", but that has nothing to do with
    > hospitals unless anesthesia is in use, and that's a stretch.


    Nah, it was just people who were clueless. I don't think that Motorola
    makes special V60's for medical personnel, especially when it had the same
    Alltel sticker as mine :)


    --
    Thomas M. Goethe
  7. John Eckart

    John Eckart Guest

    "Al Klein" <rukbat@pern.org> wrote in message =
    news:hlaorv0e0j0jhug5rmkfg0uefdh4qj8u9r@Pern.rk...
    > On Wed, 19 Nov 2003 23:36:03 GMT, "John Eckart" <JEckart@mail.com>
    > posted in alt.cellular.verizon:
    >=20
    > >Doesn't CDMA use spread-spectrum technology which transmits on more =

    than one frequency at a time? So would that, in itself, cause more =
    interference?
    >=20
    > No, it would cause less to some devices and the same amount to the
    > rest.


    Why would that, exactly?

    > >Just because you can *hear* TDMA better over a speaker than CDMA =

    doesn't necessarily mean that it causes *more* interference. The two =
    modes are still radiating energy which are capable of causing =
    interference to electronic equipment.
    >=20
    > The sensitivity of devices to interference depends on peak power, not
    > average power, making TDMA much more capable of interfering.


    What is the PEP of CDMA and TDMA?

    > >One possible reason why some hospitals allow cell phones while others =

    don't could be because some hospitals could be using older equipment =
    which may be more susceptible to RFI while other hospitals with newer =
    equipment can handle it better due to its better electronics, design and =
    shielding.
    >=20
    > Hospitals don't test their equipment for susceptibility to
    > interference to cell phones, so they wouldn't know.


    I would think modern medical equipment would be tested for various forms =
    of interference, and would have to pass FCC regulations for not causing =
    interference.
  8. Rich Sakalas

    Rich Sakalas Guest

    What you think may be a cellphone might be a dedicated in - house wireless
    system. I work for a business communications systems vendor and we work
    with two different ones. They are similar to a cell phone and are
    extensions off of the company's / hospital's PBX. The two that we work with
    operate in the 1.9 GHz band.

    To reply remove "nonsense" from my email address
    "maryann" <maryann@netzoola.com> wrote in message
    news:17f585bf.0311182050.13162875@posting.google.com...
    > There was a thread here a few months ago about cell phone use in
    > hospitals, with plenty of self righteous talk about the "dangers"
    > to the patients.
    >
    > I spent all of today in John Muir Hospital waiting for the gf to come out
    > of surgery, and noticed that each and every hospital employee appears to
    > be equipped with a cell phone. Needless to say, they
    > seem to think they won't kill the patients that way.
  9. "Al Klein" wrote:
    I've used two-way
    > radios in hospitals (operating in the same 800 MHz band as cellular
    > phones) with very little problem.


    About 15 years ago, a hospitalized ham operator asked his son to bring his
    2-meter handheld unit to the hospital so he could check with the local gang.

    He was hooked to heart monitors, and the first time he transmitted,
    everything went "flat" at the nurses' station. Suddenly, medical personal
    burst into his room with a cart full of equipment, yelling "Code Blue". They
    stopped short when they saw him sitting up in bed talking on the radio.

    Needless to say, the radio left the hospital that afternoon! :)

    -Paul-
  10. t.britt

    t.britt Guest

    my grandma is currently in the hospital under critical condition. it is also
    the hospital i work for. In this hospital cell phone usage is not limited or
    restricted. all the transporters and hospital personnel all carry nextel and
    use the PTT function in all areas. Xray, ER, etc.... Most every person you
    see walking up and down the halls have cell phones glued to their ears
    giving reports to family members...
  11. Do they have Alltel or Verizon stickers on them and look just like
    V60's?

    Seriously, I have seen such systems, but don't understand how they could
    produce a different sort of problem than a cell phone on 1900. I am sure
    they have been specifically tested for the location which would make folks
    feel safer, but in reality, I bet they are no safer.


    --
    Thomas M. Goethe


    "Rich Sakalas" <rsakalas@nonsenseepix.net> wrote in message
    news:haYub.6985$Bv6.2157613@news1.epix.net...
    > What you think may be a cellphone might be a dedicated in - house wireless
    > system. I work for a business communications systems vendor and we work
    > with two different ones. They are similar to a cell phone and are
    > extensions off of the company's / hospital's PBX. The two that we work

    with
    > operate in the 1.9 GHz band.
    >
    > To reply remove "nonsense" from my email address
    > "maryann" <maryann@netzoola.com> wrote in message
    > news:17f585bf.0311182050.13162875@posting.google.com...
    > > There was a thread here a few months ago about cell phone use in
    > > hospitals, with plenty of self righteous talk about the "dangers"
    > > to the patients.
    > >
    > > I spent all of today in John Muir Hospital waiting for the gf to come

    out
    > > of surgery, and noticed that each and every hospital employee appears to
    > > be equipped with a cell phone. Needless to say, they
    > > seem to think they won't kill the patients that way.

    >
    >
  12. Isaiah Beard

    Isaiah Beard Guest

    Lawrence Glasser wrote:

    > maryann wrote:
    >
    >>There was a thread here a few months ago about cell phone use in
    >>hospitals, with plenty of self righteous talk about the "dangers"
    >>to the patients.
    >>
    >>I spent all of today in John Muir Hospital waiting for the gf to come out
    >>of surgery, and noticed that each and every hospital employee appears to
    >>be equipped with a cell phone. Needless to say, they
    >>seem to think they won't kill the patients that way.

    >
    >
    > More than likely a Nextel-type system... More of a walkie-talkie
    > than a cell phone.


    Well, if true, I'd have to say the patients are more at risk from Nextel
    phones than anything else. Have you seen/hear the amount of
    interference those things put out? Put a Nextel phone near any monitor
    or set of speakers and have it place a call. I'm not sure if it's
    transmitter output, the frequency range they're using, or poor
    filtering, but Nextel phones do NOT play nice with other electronic
    equipment.

    --
    E-mail fudged to thwart spammers.
    Transpose the c's and a's in my e-mail address to reply.
  13. Aboutdakota

    Aboutdakota Guest

    Thomas M. Goethe wrote:
    > Do they have Alltel or Verizon stickers on them and look just like
    > V60's?
    >
    > Seriously, I have seen such systems, but don't understand how they could
    > produce a different sort of problem than a cell phone on 1900. I am sure
    > they have been specifically tested for the location which would make folks
    > feel safer, but in reality, I bet they are no safer.



    But, the degree of interference could be minimal. Since the handset
    would not have to communicate with a tower, say about 7 miles away, it
    would not have to emit as much energy. Plus, they could be using a
    different protocol than VZW (people here swear that CDMA doesn't cause
    interference but AMPS, TDMA, and GSM do -- so why wouldn't there be a
    better alternative than CDMA?)

    AD
  14. Al Klein

    Al Klein Guest

    On Thu, 20 Nov 2003 02:18:33 +0000 (UTC), danny burstein
    <dannyb@panix.com> posted in alt.cellular.verizon:

    >It's just that, in general, hospitals tend to be more massively
    >constructed than light duty structures.


    Stone doesn't block much signal.

    > Add in a whole bunch more in teh
    >way of piping and other in-the-wall metallic infrastructure, and radio
    >signals run into trouble...


    Only deep inside the building and then only in some buildings.
  15. Al Klein

    Al Klein Guest

    On Wed, 19 Nov 2003 22:04:57 -0500, "Thomas M. Goethe"
    <xspamgoethe11xxxxxx@lycos.com> posted in alt.cellular.verizon:

    > Nah, it was just people who were clueless. I don't think that Motorola
    >makes special V60's for medical personnel, especially when it had the same
    >Alltel sticker as mine :)


    LOL. I noticed the same thing in the local hospital, even though they
    tried to tell me that there was something special about the phones.

    I promise to not practice medicine if those doctors don't practice
    engineering.
  16. In <lbvqrv4qgf4vtssm93bdp5v2v9ep3aol7s@Pern.rk> Al Klein <rukbat@pern.org> writes:

    >>It's just that, in general, hospitals tend to be more massively
    >>constructed than light duty structures.


    >Stone doesn't block much signal.


    every bit is noticable with low powered communications, i.e. cellphones..

    >> Add in a whole bunch more in teh
    >>way of piping and other in-the-wall metallic infrastructure, and radio
    >>signals run into trouble...


    >Only deep inside the building and then only in some buildings.


    Every room has water supply so three sets of pipes there, lots more
    electrical conduit, oxygen piping, etc. reflections aplenty, corners,
    right angles, etc.

    Certainly not a Farady Cage, but a lot less EM friendly than an open field
    or a light commercial structure.

    --
    _____________________________________________________
    Knowledge may be power, but communications is the key
    dannyb@panix.com
    [to foil spammers, my address has been double rot-13 encoded]
  17. Al Klein

    Al Klein Guest

    On Thu, 20 Nov 2003 04:03:58 GMT, "John Eckart" <JEckart@mail.com>
    posted in alt.cellular.verizon:

    >"Al Klein" <rukbat@pern.org> wrote in message news:hlaorv0e0j0jhug5rmkfg0uefdh4qj8u9r@Pern.rk...
    >> On Wed, 19 Nov 2003 23:36:03 GMT, "John Eckart" <JEckart@mail.com>
    >> posted in alt.cellular.verizon:


    >> >Doesn't CDMA use spread-spectrum technology which transmits on more than one frequency at a time? So would that, in itself, cause more interference?


    >> No, it would cause less to some devices and the same amount to the
    >> rest.


    >Why would that, exactly?


    Peak power is less, so devices sensitive to peak power would get more
    interference from TDMA. Devices sensitive to average power would get
    the same interference if the phones were both running the same power,
    and less from a phone running less power. Devices getting
    interference from a coherent signal won't get much interference, if
    any, from a CDMA phone.

    >> >Just because you can *hear* TDMA better over a speaker than CDMA doesn't necessarily mean that it causes *more* interference. The two modes are still radiating energy which are capable of causing interference to electronic equipment.


    >> The sensitivity of devices to interference depends on peak power, not
    >> average power, making TDMA much more capable of interfering.


    >What is the PEP of CDMA and TDMA?


    On a single frequency, CDMA output is virtually nil. PEP and average
    power on FM are the same. But there's a difference between peak power
    and average power.

    Look at it this way: If you produce a signal that's 1ms of 1,000
    volts and 999 ms of 0 volts, the average voltage is 1 volt. But if
    you connect it to a 100 watt light bulb, you'll blow the bulb out -
    with a 1 volt signal.

    >> >One possible reason why some hospitals allow cell phones while others don't could be because some hospitals could be using older equipment which may be more susceptible to RFI while other hospitals with newer equipment can handle it better due to its

    better electronics, design and shielding.

    >> Hospitals don't test their equipment for susceptibility to
    >> interference to cell phones, so they wouldn't know.


    >I would think modern medical equipment would be tested for various forms of interference, and would have to pass FCC regulations for not causing interference.


    Not causing, yes, and most of it fails, so it can't be used in a
    residential setting. The FCC isn't concerned with whether your BP
    monitor interferes with your EKG, or whether it interferes with it.
    They're only concerned that you don't use commercial devices (those
    that cause interference) in residential settings unless you have no
    right to complain about the interference.

    For instance, ALL TV sets can be interfered with by all sorts of
    devices that are working properly.
  18. TPD

    TPD Guest

    I don't know if cell phones are a good idea or not in hospitals. I can
    tell you that as a resident surgeon my Nextel's hands free auto answer
    feature was great. I could take speaker phone calls from junior
    residents and the attendings while in the middle of a case. Very
    efficient. What helped was when the hospital installed a Nextel
    signal booster to help the ER nurses/docs who were given Nextels to
    communicate (Helped all Nextels in the hospital).

    None of my cases were affected by cell use. Anesthesia did not seem
    to care. On the other hand the ICU and CCU did not like cell phone
    use. I just could not figure out why they were any different than the
    OR?

    Now that I am an attending I stopped using my cell phone in the OR.
    That is because it won't work in my new hospital, no signal booster.
    :)



    "Rich Sakalas" <rsakalas@nonsenseepix.net> wrote in message news:<haYub.6985$Bv6.2157613@news1.epix.net>...
    > What you think may be a cellphone might be a dedicated in - house wireless
    > system. I work for a business communications systems vendor and we work
    > with two different ones. They are similar to a cell phone and are
    > extensions off of the company's / hospital's PBX. The two that we work with
    > operate in the 1.9 GHz band.
    >
    > To reply remove "nonsense" from my email address
    > "maryann" <maryann@netzoola.com> wrote in message
    > news:17f585bf.0311182050.13162875@posting.google.com...
    > > There was a thread here a few months ago about cell phone use in
    > > hospitals, with plenty of self righteous talk about the "dangers"
    > > to the patients.
    > >
    > > I spent all of today in John Muir Hospital waiting for the gf to come out
    > > of surgery, and noticed that each and every hospital employee appears to
    > > be equipped with a cell phone. Needless to say, they
    > > seem to think they won't kill the patients that way.
  19. Jari

    Jari Guest

    12 months ago I read clip from pharmaceutical magazine . They observed a
    change on infusion pump from 9 to 999 ml/ hour after a call was initiated.
    No model of the phone or pump was given . Significant? Yeah you may be
    dead.
    "TPD" <tushar3@hotmail.com> wrote in message
    news:8ff0e3a3.0311202232.7527efeb@posting.google.com...
    > I don't know if cell phones are a good idea or not in hospitals. I can
    > tell you that as a resident surgeon my Nextel's hands free auto answer
    > feature was great. I could take speaker phone calls from junior
    > residents and the attendings while in the middle of a case. Very
    > efficient. What helped was when the hospital installed a Nextel
    > signal booster to help the ER nurses/docs who were given Nextels to
    > communicate (Helped all Nextels in the hospital).
    >
    > None of my cases were affected by cell use. Anesthesia did not seem
    > to care. On the other hand the ICU and CCU did not like cell phone
    > use. I just could not figure out why they were any different than the
    > OR?
    >
    > Now that I am an attending I stopped using my cell phone in the OR.
    > That is because it won't work in my new hospital, no signal booster.
    > :)
    >
    >
    >
    > "Rich Sakalas" <rsakalas@nonsenseepix.net> wrote in message

    news:<haYub.6985$Bv6.2157613@news1.epix.net>...
    > > What you think may be a cellphone might be a dedicated in - house

    wireless
    > > system. I work for a business communications systems vendor and we work
    > > with two different ones. They are similar to a cell phone and are
    > > extensions off of the company's / hospital's PBX. The two that we work

    with
    > > operate in the 1.9 GHz band.
    > >
    > > To reply remove "nonsense" from my email address
    > > "maryann" <maryann@netzoola.com> wrote in message
    > > news:17f585bf.0311182050.13162875@posting.google.com...
    > > > There was a thread here a few months ago about cell phone use in
    > > > hospitals, with plenty of self righteous talk about the "dangers"
    > > > to the patients.
    > > >
    > > > I spent all of today in John Muir Hospital waiting for the gf to come

    out
    > > > of surgery, and noticed that each and every hospital employee appears

    to
    > > > be equipped with a cell phone. Needless to say, they
    > > > seem to think they won't kill the patients that way.
  20. Not Me

    Not Me Guest

    | >bit unreligious IMO. Entering a hospital, you usually supposed to turn
    | >the Cell Phone off since Cell Phones uses Microwave Transmissions
    |
    | Which has what to do with hospitals? Are you afraid the patients will
    | be cooked?

    Medical instrumentation is not usually not properly hardened (interference
    proofed). RF form cell phone can play havoc with these devices. In some
    cases a malfunction can kill.

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