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cell phone use in hospitals

Discussion in 'alt.cellular.verizon' started by maryann, Nov 18, 2003.

  1. Not Me

    Not Me Guest

    | > Nah, it was just people who were clueless. I don't think that
    Motorola
    | >makes special V60's for medical personnel, especially when it had the
    same
    | >Alltel sticker as mine :)
    |
    | LOL. I noticed the same thing in the local hospital, even though they
    | tried to tell me that there was something special about the phones.
    |
    | I promise to not practice medicine if those doctors don't practice
    | engineering.

    Actually there is something special about the phones. They have been tested
    and certified for the application something that is not done with general
    wireless equipment.



    › See More: cell phone use in hospitals
  2. I concur that there is stuff out there that has been tested and the RF
    can cause malfunctions in equipment that can cause serious harm. On the
    other hand, when I see people using the same Alltel or VZW phone that I
    have, I really doubt if they got Motorola and the carrier to make a special
    phone just for them. I do turn my stuff off when in the hospital, as the
    signs request, but it is a bit annoying to see widespread use of the
    identical equipment by the same staff that screams at me for having a
    powered down phone. What is even odder is that they never questioned the
    five watt Motorola MX-330 on 450 mhz that probably had a lot more potential
    to cause problems or the 800 mhz Motorola STX at three watts. It was just
    c-phones they were hysterical about.

    Again, I have no issue with turning the stuff off and I do so. Life is
    too important to chance. I would just like to see some intelligence applied.


    --
    Thomas M. Goethe




    "Not Me" <me@privacy.net> wrote in message
    news:bpmboq$1pskat$2@ID-204939.news.uni-berlin.de...
    > | > Nah, it was just people who were clueless. I don't think that
    > Motorola
    > | >makes special V60's for medical personnel, especially when it had the
    > same
    > | >Alltel sticker as mine :)
    > |
    > | LOL. I noticed the same thing in the local hospital, even though they
    > | tried to tell me that there was something special about the phones.
    > |
    > | I promise to not practice medicine if those doctors don't practice
    > | engineering.
    >
    > Actually there is something special about the phones. They have been

    tested
    > and certified for the application something that is not done with general
    > wireless equipment.
    >
    >
  3. Al Klein

    Al Klein Guest

    On Fri, 21 Nov 2003 03:01:04 +0000 (UTC), danny burstein
    <dannyb@panix.com> posted in alt.cellular.verizon:

    >>> Add in a whole bunch more in teh
    >>>way of piping and other in-the-wall metallic infrastructure, and radio
    >>>signals run into trouble...


    >>Only deep inside the building and then only in some buildings.


    >Every room has water supply so three sets of pipes there, lots more
    >electrical conduit, oxygen piping, etc. reflections aplenty, corners,
    >right angles, etc.


    Not in external walls usually, so no, unless the cell is inside the
    building. The pipes, etc., might actually act as reflectors.

    >Certainly not a Farady Cage, but a lot less EM friendly than an open field
    >or a light commercial structure.


    A "light commercial structure" can be a steel frame building and a
    hospital can be wood frame or stone/brick, making the "light
    commercial structure" MUCH more of a Faraday cage. Do some actual
    field measurements.
  4. Al Klein

    Al Klein Guest

    On Thu, 20 Nov 2003 10:15:14 -0500, Isaiah Beard
    <sacredpoet@sacredpoet.com> posted in alt.cellular.verizon:

    >Well, if true, I'd have to say the patients are more at risk from Nextel
    >phones than anything else. Have you seen/hear the amount of
    >interference those things put out? Put a Nextel phone near any monitor
    >or set of speakers and have it place a call. I'm not sure if it's
    >transmitter output, the frequency range they're using, or poor
    >filtering


    Just plain old TDMA technology.
  5. Al Klein

    Al Klein Guest

    On Thu, 20 Nov 2003 05:20:13 GMT, "Rich Sakalas"
    <rsakalas@nonsenseepix.net> posted in alt.cellular.verizon:

    >What you think may be a cellphone might be a dedicated in - house wireless
    >system. I work for a business communications systems vendor and we work
    >with two different ones. They are similar to a cell phone and are
    >extensions off of the company's / hospital's PBX. The two that we work with
    >operate in the 1.9 GHz band.


    Which is the same frequency PCS cellphones work at, so the
    interference would be the same.
  6. Al Klein

    Al Klein Guest

    On Thu, 20 Nov 2003 14:01:57 -0600, Aboutdakota
    <aboutdakota@hot-mail.com> posted in alt.cellular.verizon:

    >But, the degree of interference could be minimal. Since the handset
    >would not have to communicate with a tower, say about 7 miles away, it
    >would not have to emit as much energy. Plus, they could be using a
    >different protocol than VZW (people here swear that CDMA doesn't cause
    >interference but AMPS, TDMA, and GSM do -- so why wouldn't there be a
    >better alternative than CDMA?)


    CDMA causes less interference because the energy is spread out in
    frequency. To cause less interference you'd have to eliminate the
    energy.
  7. Al Klein

    Al Klein Guest

    On 20 Nov 2003 22:32:47 -0800, tushar3@hotmail.com (TPD) posted in
    alt.cellular.verizon:

    >None of my cases were affected by cell use.


    If you laid the phone down on the chest of a patient who had a
    pacemaker you might have noticed something. But from a few feet away?
    I doubt it.

    >Anesthesia did not seem
    >to care. On the other hand the ICU and CCU did not like cell phone
    >use. I just could not figure out why they were any different than the
    >OR?


    Did they have wireless cardiac monitors?
  8. Al Klein

    Al Klein Guest

    On Fri, 21 Nov 2003 07:25:12 GMT, "Jari"
    <removemeforjari@sbcglobal.net> posted in alt.cellular.verizon:

    >12 months ago I read clip from pharmaceutical magazine . They observed a
    >change on infusion pump from 9 to 999 ml/ hour after a call was initiated.
    >No model of the phone or pump was given . Significant? Yeah you may be
    >dead.


    And who's to blame? The infusion pump manufacturer, as far as I'm
    concerned. Cell phones aren't the only source of radiation.
  9. Peter Pan

    Peter Pan Guest

    "Al Klein" <rukbat@pern.org> wrote in message
    news:ukptrvgsjnkemgrnmd138lgo6otcnvadd4@Pern.rk...
    > On 20 Nov 2003 22:32:47 -0800, tushar3@hotmail.com (TPD) posted in
    > alt.cellular.verizon:
    >
    > >None of my cases were affected by cell use.

    >
    > If you laid the phone down on the chest of a patient who had a
    > pacemaker you might have noticed something. But from a few feet away?
    > I doubt it.
    >
    > >Anesthesia did not seem
    > >to care. On the other hand the ICU and CCU did not like cell phone
    > >use. I just could not figure out why they were any different than the
    > >OR?

    >
    > Did they have wireless cardiac monitors?


    I don't understand the mentality of people that assume that since their cell
    phone is "perfect", and they would never do anything that endangered
    someone, that therefore absolutely everyone else in the worlds cell phone is
    ALSO perfect, that the nurses and doctors in the hospitals should be
    engineers rather than health care professionals, and the rule is stupid and
    should be broken/ignored.
    I wonder what will happen when people with camera phones start taking
    pictures of people in hospitals and sell em to the tabloids (like they are
    doing in health clubs now). I can just imagine it now, "well my cell phone
    doesn't have a camera so I'm exempt".
  10. Not Me

    Not Me Guest

    | >12 months ago I read clip from pharmaceutical magazine . They observed a
    | >change on infusion pump from 9 to 999 ml/ hour after a call was
    initiated.
    | >No model of the phone or pump was given . Significant? Yeah you may be
    | >dead.
    |
    | And who's to blame? The infusion pump manufacturer, as far as I'm
    | concerned. Cell phones aren't the only source of radiation.

    I don't think it really matters who's 'to blame' but that the condition
    exits. Most of the medical equipment was designed long before cell phones
    became a problem and due to equipment depreciation and budget cycles it will
    be a long time before this equipment is purged from the medical systems.
    (BTW it is not practical to modify or upgrade existing equipment to remove
    the potential problem.
  11. adam

    adam Guest

    Actually, it's the digital, not analog... I've had a customer return their
    Nextel because it was interfering with his pacemaker.


    "Lawrence Glasser" <lglasser@spamcop.net> wrote in message
    news:7ff4d2285f511edf66728fd68b1a7d24@news.teranews.com...
    > Geoff Brozny wrote:
    > >
    > > "Lawrence Glasser" <lglasser@spamcop.net> wrote in message
    > > news:3FBAFB49.3206E1B6@spamcop.net...
    > > >
    > > > More than likely a Nextel-type system... More of a walkie-talkie
    > > > than a cell phone.

    > >
    > > the Nextel's would screw up the test sets when I worked at Lucent, the
    > > interference would cause boards to fail the test when infact they were

    good,
    > > and in the more extreme case, would cause the calibration to get messed

    up
    > > on the test set...

    >
    > That wasn't "Nextel," it was "Nextel-type."
    >
    > As someone who works in *alot* of hospital ORs, I've seen both

    walkie-talkie
    > type communicators and regular cell phones. My understanding is that the
    > fear of cell phone interference with monitors is a throwback to the days

    of
    > analog.
    >
    > Larry
  12. SueNY

    SueNY Guest

    Hi...
    I just got home from the hospital and they did not allow cell phone use in
    the hospital buildings at all. The hospital did appear to have it's own in
    house 2-way radio system set up, but cell phones were not allowed. When I
    finally got released I had over 20 voice mails waiting on my i95-and a lot
    of them from people who were pretty upset with me for not answering even
    though they knew I was in the hospital-they had no idea cell phones weren't
    allowed in hospitals!

    SueNY
  13. In article <nigtrv09t4lrbmsi6mrql0um33292fp4jt@Pern.rk>, rukbat@pern.org
    says...
    > On Fri, 21 Nov 2003 03:01:04 +0000 (UTC), danny burstein
    > <dannyb@panix.com> posted in alt.cellular.verizon:
    >
    > >>> Add in a whole bunch more in teh
    > >>>way of piping and other in-the-wall metallic infrastructure, and radio
    > >>>signals run into trouble...

    >
    > >>Only deep inside the building and then only in some buildings.

    >
    > >Every room has water supply so three sets of pipes there, lots more
    > >electrical conduit, oxygen piping, etc. reflections aplenty, corners,
    > >right angles, etc.

    >
    > Not in external walls usually, so no, unless the cell is inside the
    > building. The pipes, etc., might actually act as reflectors.


    I have to disagree. I have had a "portable" cell phone since back in
    '87. Cinder block and concrete walls DO interfere with them.
    Currently, I am working on a project that involves an old Data Center in
    standard Cinder block walls. One whole outside segment (building is
    physically divided into 12) is empty with only lighting power. I still
    don't get any signal with my Sanyo 8100, nor do any of the other phones
    people have.

    It's even worse in the center for the higher power phones in the
    center of the building.

    Even in LARGE buildings like BankOne's Corp offices here in North
    Columbus, cell phone signals are weak as little as 10' from the outside
    WINDOWED walls.

    I too have worked in Hospitals, Nextel phones seem better equiped to
    handle "building" interference. Both BankOne and Nationwide have
    company plans with them for that specific reason.

    I'm guessing here, but I think Nextel's PTT uses a different frequency
    than their "cell" service. I only know that 2 floors below ground in
    the middle of a large office building covering a city block, Nextel's
    PTT works when their (and everyone else's) cell service doesn't.

    And all that's without repeaters installed.
  14. In article <e1aorvskmlteqbauc8i6aekff6eth79ldr@Pern.rk>, rukbat@pern.org
    says...
    > On Wed, 19 Nov 2003 10:10:04 -0600, Steven J Sobol
    > <sjsobol@JustThe.net> posted in alt.cellular.verizon:
    >
    > >I know that back home, the hospital near our house banned two-way pagers.
    > >They care about the transmission of radio waves, apparently, but not the
    > >reception of the RF on the paging frequencies.

    >
    > And, apparently, not the transmission of signal from the one-way
    > pager's local oscillator.
    >

    All the Hospital's in Central Ohio have signs prohibiting "Two-way
    communication devices". The sign includes pictures of cell phones,
    pagers and radios. Most that I have been do have "designated" areas for
    their use.

    From my experience, only Surgery, critical care areas and the "X-ray"
    (inc. CAT/MRI) are "actual" danger zones. Newer equipment is being
    shielded internally.
  15. CharlesH

    CharlesH Guest

    In article <8iptrvolpoenjlhm8oo81lsivg550ka188@Pern.rk>,
    Al Klein <ehxong@bcgbayvar.arg> wrote:
    >CDMA causes less interference because the energy is spread out in
    >frequency. To cause less interference you'd have to eliminate the
    >energy.


    All variants of TDMA (IS-136 [U.S "TDMA"], GSM, iDen[NexTel])
    work by turning on their transmitter on during their time slice, and off
    the rest of the time. It is this pulsing on and off several thousand
    times per second (the rate depending on the particular variant) which
    does most of the intererence by digital mobile phones with other equipment.

    A CDMA phone spreads its signal across a 1.25MHz "carrier", and is "on"
    100% of the time during a call. The signal strength is being continuously
    adjusted, but there are not the spikes you see on TDMA protocols. In fact,
    CDMA was originally developed by the military as a protocol which is resistent
    to jamming and is difficult to even detect without appropriate receivers,
    let alone cause interference.
  16. David S

    David S Guest

    On Wed, 19 Nov 2003 23:40:57 GMT, "John Eckart" <JEckart@mail.com> chose to
    add this to the great equation of life, the universe, and everything:

    >Anyone know of any other places where you can't use cell phones, like missile silos or something?


    Courthouses, I believe, but for legal, not technical, reasons.

    A few years ago, I was in the habit of carrying my 2M HT everywhere. When I
    went in for jury duty, they had a hissy fit over it. I ended up taking it
    and my small Swiss army knife back to my car. (They had called enough
    people for 5 juries but only ended up needing 1 or 2; I sat all day reading
    a book and went home.)

    --
    David Streeter, "an internet god" -- Dave Barry
    http://home.att.net/~dwstreeter
    Expect a train on ANY track at ANY time.
    "Embrace your guppiness." - Det. Danny Sorensen
  17. > There was a thread here a few months ago about cell phone use in
    > hospitals, with plenty of self righteous talk about the "dangers"
    > to the patients.
    >
    > I spent all of today in John Muir Hospital waiting for the gf to come out
    > of surgery, and noticed that each and every hospital employee appears to
    > be equipped with a cell phone. Needless to say, they
    > seem to think they won't kill the patients that way.


    For what it's worth, I know that when my (GSM) cell phone is
    communicating with the tower, I can hear it on my car's FM radio. I
    usually know when the phone is going to ring before it does.

    Clearly all cell phones transmit, but regardless, ICU rooms rather
    than allowing anything that hasn't been proven dangerous, go the route
    of allowing only equipment that has been proven safe.

    -Joel
  18. Al Klein

    Al Klein Guest

    On Sat, 22 Nov 2003 14:54:19 -0500, Stromm Sarnac
    <strommsarnac@yahoo.com> posted in alt.cellular.verizon:

    > I'm guessing here, but I think Nextel's PTT uses a different frequency
    >than their "cell" service.


    Nextel (they're not a cellco, they're a common carrier) uses a lower
    frequency than cell phones.
  19. Al Klein

    Al Klein Guest

    On Sat, 22 Nov 2003 14:59:51 -0500, Stromm Sarnac
    <strommsarnac@yahoo.com> posted in alt.cellular.verizon:

    > All the Hospital's in Central Ohio have signs prohibiting "Two-way
    >communication devices". The sign includes pictures of cell phones,
    >pagers and radios. Most that I have been do have "designated" areas for
    >their use.


    Pagers - some of them, at least - are one-way communications devices.

    > From my experience, only Surgery, critical care areas and the "X-ray"
    >(inc. CAT/MRI) are "actual" danger zones. Newer equipment is being
    >shielded internally.


    The only danger in MRI/X-Ray areas is to the cell phone.
  20. Al Klein

    Al Klein Guest

    On 22 Nov 2003 23:25:10 GMT, hoch@exemplary.invalid (CharlesH) posted
    in alt.cellular.verizon:

    >In article <8iptrvolpoenjlhm8oo81lsivg550ka188@Pern.rk>,
    >Al Klein <ehxong@bcgbayvar.arg> wrote:
    >>CDMA causes less interference because the energy is spread out in
    >>frequency. To cause less interference you'd have to eliminate the
    >>energy.


    >All variants of TDMA (IS-136 [U.S "TDMA"], GSM, iDen[NexTel])
    >work by turning on their transmitter on during their time slice, and off
    >the rest of the time. It is this pulsing on and off several thousand
    >times per second (the rate depending on the particular variant)


    More like several times/second, at most. IS-136 commonly runs 1.28 or
    2.56 second slots AFAIK.

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