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Is Verizon using active power control on AMPS?

Discussion in 'alt.cellular.verizon' started by N9WOS, Dec 1, 2003.

  1. N9WOS

    N9WOS Guest

    I just discovered an odd situation.

    Normally a bag phone, older AMPS hand held,
    newer digital phone that is in amps mode will
    use active power control to limit TX power
    to the minimum necessary.

    It saves a heck of a lot on battery life too.
    Just like it does with digital modes

    But I was checking a bag phone I just got a while ago.
    That being a Motorola "soft pack" transportable phone.
    I was checking sleep, idle, active, and in call current draw.

    It was on the A side (cingular)
    Sleep current was a few milliamps.
    Idle current was around 100miliamps.
    Active (backlight on) current was 200 milliamps.
    In call was 500 milliamps (0.5A)
    TX power was 120 mw.

    That was pretty good. It is a newer phone that most
    of the other analog only phones I have, and it
    uses discreet components in the PA section instead
    of a monolithic amp like the older ones.
    The other 3W Motorola phones I have normally
    draw about 150ma in idle mode, and 200 in active mode.
    So a savings of 50ma in idle mode compared to the older ones.

    But I switched it over to verizon's side (B side) for the heck of it
    and I found something odd.
    I had never checked TX level on verizon's side.
    And I assumed that it would be the same
    because they now share the same tower.
    Wrong!
    The thing cranked up to 1.5A in call.
    I checked the TX level and it was at full 3W.
    I tried with another call, 1.5A 3W
    I tried the A side again 0.5A 120mw
    I tried the B side again 1.5A 3W

    Checked a few other 3W phones here and same result
    Checked a few handheld phones, same result.

    So I ask this.....
    Can any of you on this board, that is close to a verizon tower,
    check your phone to see what power level it operates
    at in analog mode?
    Is your phone using TX power control in analog mode,
    or is it running full bore?

    Having the TX level maxed out like that will
    Not help in the battery life and talk time situation.

    It can make the difference between a bag phone
    Having 5 hours of talk time in analog mode or 1 hour.
    Same for a hand held phone.

    If they are no longer using active power control on the
    old amps system, I can see why battery life drains so quickly
    when in analog mode.
    (I mean more quickly than it should.)
    The "one hour" analog talk time is a worse case situation,
    not the norm, or it shouldn't be the norm unless you are
    far away from a tower.
     



    › See More: Is Verizon using active power control on AMPS?
  2. Steve Crow

    Steve Crow Guest

    While I don't have any analog handsets sitting aroudn right now, I became
    aware of VZW's lack of use of this technology a couple years ago. My old
    Alltel phone would decrease power output as I got closer to the cell. Not
    the case with VZW analog sets. Dunno why.

    Steve

    On Mon, 1 Dec 2003, N9WOS wrote:

    > I just discovered an odd situation.
    >
    > Normally a bag phone, older AMPS hand held,
    > newer digital phone that is in amps mode will
    > use active power control to limit TX power
    > to the minimum necessary.
    >
    > It saves a heck of a lot on battery life too.
    > Just like it does with digital modes
    >
    > But I was checking a bag phone I just got a while ago.
    > That being a Motorola "soft pack" transportable phone.
    > I was checking sleep, idle, active, and in call current draw.
    >
    > It was on the A side (cingular)
    > Sleep current was a few milliamps.
    > Idle current was around 100miliamps.
    > Active (backlight on) current was 200 milliamps.
    > In call was 500 milliamps (0.5A)
    > TX power was 120 mw.
    >
    > That was pretty good. It is a newer phone that most
    > of the other analog only phones I have, and it
    > uses discreet components in the PA section instead
    > of a monolithic amp like the older ones.
    > The other 3W Motorola phones I have normally
    > draw about 150ma in idle mode, and 200 in active mode.
    > So a savings of 50ma in idle mode compared to the older ones.
    >
    > But I switched it over to verizon's side (B side) for the heck of it
    > and I found something odd.
    > I had never checked TX level on verizon's side.
    > And I assumed that it would be the same
    > because they now share the same tower.
    > Wrong!
    > The thing cranked up to 1.5A in call.
    > I checked the TX level and it was at full 3W.
    > I tried with another call, 1.5A 3W
    > I tried the A side again 0.5A 120mw
    > I tried the B side again 1.5A 3W
    >
    > Checked a few other 3W phones here and same result
    > Checked a few handheld phones, same result.
    >
    > So I ask this.....
    > Can any of you on this board, that is close to a verizon tower,
    > check your phone to see what power level it operates
    > at in analog mode?
    > Is your phone using TX power control in analog mode,
    > or is it running full bore?
    >
    > Having the TX level maxed out like that will
    > Not help in the battery life and talk time situation.
    >
    > It can make the difference between a bag phone
    > Having 5 hours of talk time in analog mode or 1 hour.
    > Same for a hand held phone.
    >
    > If they are no longer using active power control on the
    > old amps system, I can see why battery life drains so quickly
    > when in analog mode.
    > (I mean more quickly than it should.)
    > The "one hour" analog talk time is a worse case situation,
    > not the norm, or it shouldn't be the norm unless you are
    > far away from a tower.
    >
    >
    >



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  3. Larry W4CSC

    Larry W4CSC Guest

    On Mon, 01 Dec 2003 23:29:33 GMT, "N9WOS"
    <n9wos@nobug.worldnet.att.net> wrote:

    >
    >But I was checking a bag phone I just got a while ago.
    >That being a Motorola "soft pack" transportable phone.
    >I was checking sleep, idle, active, and in call current draw.
    >
    >It was on the A side (cingular)
    >Sleep current was a few milliamps.
    >Idle current was around 100miliamps.
    >Active (backlight on) current was 200 milliamps.
    >In call was 500 milliamps (0.5A)
    >TX power was 120 mw.


    Hmm...My Motorola TX200 beast has little edgewise voltmeter/ammeter in
    it, sitting on top of the 2.2Ah gelcell I use to power it, portably.
    Idle current is around 80ma, but when I'm on-the-air 1/2 mile from the
    VZW tower that gives it full scale at home, it's only drawing around
    860 ma at 13V, a little more if I have the 1.5A boat charger plugged
    in. Must not be 120mw. The RF gets into the big stereo the computer
    plays through with a decided "thump" anytime it calls "Mother". The
    thump also warns me it's gonna start ringing LOUDLY right behind me
    when I'm at the computer.

    VZW's old Charleston Cellular One system doesn't power control,
    here.....You must have one of them new-fangled TRANSISTOR switches,
    not ours with tubes....(c;

    >The thing cranked up to 1.5A in call.
    >I checked the TX level and it was at full 3W.
    >I tried with another call, 1.5A 3W
    >I tried the A side again 0.5A 120mw
    >I tried the B side again 1.5A 3W


    Wow, efficiency SUCKS! 1.5A x 13V is over 19 WATTS INPUT! It only
    puts out 3 watts??!! Geez, it's input is over 6.5W to get a measily
    120mw out the box. This ain't right, man! Your bag needs a TUNEUP!

    What's the SWR on the antenna look like? You got a Bird with an 800
    Mhz slug? You might have antenna troubles making it draw so much.
    16W of heat load will make that box get really HOT wrapped up in the
    bag insulator like it is. How hot does it get when you're on
    unlimited and long-winded??
    >
    >Checked a few other 3W phones here and same result
    >Checked a few handheld phones, same result.
    >
    >So I ask this.....
    >Can any of you on this board, that is close to a verizon tower,
    >check your phone to see what power level it operates
    >at in analog mode?
    >Is your phone using TX power control in analog mode,
    >or is it running full bore?


    Full Bore, here. Probably hoggin' a channel on 10 towers!....(c;

    STAND CLEAR! WE DON'T WANT ANYONE BURNED!!
    >
    >Having the TX level maxed out like that will
    >Not help in the battery life and talk time situation.
    >
    >It can make the difference between a bag phone
    >Having 5 hours of talk time in analog mode or 1 hour.
    >Same for a hand held phone.


    If I'm home, it matters not. The bag is plugged into its Schumacher
    SE-1-12S 1.5A automatic shutoff boat battery charger brick (WalMart,
    $26). It'll talk a couple of hours portable at 800 ma with plenty of
    power to spare, a whole 1 Ah. If I'm traveling on the weekend and
    tearing up the timer, I just plug it into the car, which bypasses the
    gelcell. On the yacht, it's always plugged into the 700 Ah "House
    Banks".
    >
    >If they are no longer using active power control on the
    >old amps system, I can see why battery life drains so quickly
    >when in analog mode.
    >(I mean more quickly than it should.)
    >The "one hour" analog talk time is a worse case situation,
    >not the norm, or it shouldn't be the norm unless you are
    >far away from a tower.


    I've never seen it draw less on AMPS. Alltel runs it wide open, too.
    Maybe that's why its signal is so solid??

    There's plenty of room for a 2.2AH gelcell in any bag pack. Mine is a
    $16 pack from Batteries Plus, model XP-12-2.2, It's the generic
    version of the popular old camcorder battery pack with two solder
    terminals, one on each end of the top. I solder a 2-prong polarized
    boat trailer light plug for the charger and a RatShack cigarette
    lighter to plug the phone into it.

    If that thing is really drawing 1.5A for 3W, you need to tune it up!
    It's drawin' almost twice what my TX200 draws!


    Larry W4CSC

    NNNN
     
  4. N9WOS

    N9WOS Guest

    > Hmm...My Motorola TX200 beast has little edgewise voltmeter/ammeter in
    > it, sitting on top of the 2.2Ah gelcell I use to power it, portably.
    > Idle current is around 80ma, but when I'm on-the-air 1/2 mile from the
    > VZW tower that gives it full scale at home, it's only drawing around
    > 860 ma at 13V, a little more if I have the 1.5A boat charger plugged
    > in. Must not be 120mw. The RF gets into the big stereo the computer
    > plays through with a decided "thump" anytime it calls "Mother". The
    > thump also warns me it's gonna start ringing LOUDLY right behind me
    > when I'm at the computer.


    I haven't seen one draw under an amp at full power.
    I would check the SCM (station class mark)
    to see if it is set to 09, or 10, instead of 08.
    Or if it is set to 13, or 14, instead of 12, if it has VOX
    The tower may only think it has 1.2W as it's maximum setting.
    so it sets it to that 1.2W instead of 3W

    > >The thing cranked up to 1.5A in call.
    > >I checked the TX level and it was at full 3W.
    > >I tried with another call, 1.5A 3W
    > >I tried the A side again 0.5A 120mw
    > >I tried the B side again 1.5A 3W

    >
    > Wow, efficiency SUCKS! 1.5A x 13V is over 19 WATTS INPUT!


    You have to take into account that it has to draw enough
    current to obtain wattage at a minimum of 9V input.
    I set it at 12V for testing.
    So that is a max of 19W at 12V
    or 13W for 9V
    And it will put out full power at 9V
    That is the point just below where it
    shuts off from low battery condition.

    > It only puts out 3 watts??!!


    The amp in the cell phones looks to be a class AB design
    with variable base current.
    less harmonic distortion is produce so less filtering is needed.
    Maximum efficiency is under 50%
    Looks to be a predecessor to the modern
    CDMA, final amp design
    About 450 ma is base load draw for TX operation
    1A is going into the final PA at full power.
    At 9V, 9W in 3W out, 6W loss, around, 33% efficient.
    At 12V, 12W in, 3W out, 9W loss, around 25% efficient.
    Current draw doesn't change with voltage.

    The full power TX draw is a little more than
    the other Motorola transportables I have.
    They normally draw about 1.1A to 1.2A
    But the low power current draw is lower.
    500ma instead of 700ma for a 120mw signal.
    So the variable bas current amp has it's strong points
    and its bad points.

    >Geez, it's input is over 6.5W to get a measily
    > 120mw out the box. This ain't right, man! Your bag needs a TUNEUP!


    The signal processors, audio amps, preamp sections that operates during
    TX is the primary load at that level.
    The PA section will pull around 4X the output power, or about 40 to 50ma.
    The rest of the power is drawn by the other operating equipment.
    You will have around 6W draw, no mater what the output.

    >
    > What's the SWR on the antenna look like? You got a Bird with an 800
    > Mhz slug? You might have antenna troubles making it draw so much.


    The swr is good, less than 1.3 to 1.
    with the final RF amp design that Motorola, nokia and other producers use
    in 3W phones, when the antenna detunes, it loses coupling with the PA,
    so it draws less current when the antenna is messes up.
    The signal runs through the duplexer, and the duplexer will look like an
    open load to the PA when the antenna is shorted, or open.
    Unless the load matches the impedance of the duplexer, it will not
    transfer power.

    The rubber duck antennas that come with the phones usually don't
    match the output very well, so the phone draws less current in TX.

    > If that thing is really drawing 1.5A for 3W, you need to tune it up!
    > It's drawin' almost twice what my TX200 draws!


    I would try a few different antennas on that unit, and see if it has
    the SCM set properly in the nam programming.

    ALL the nokias I have will draw 1.4A to 1.6A in full power TX.
    So this Motorola unit pretty much follows along with their power
    consumption.
     
  5. N9WOS

    N9WOS Guest


    > and see if it has the SCM set properly in the nam programming.


    Nick the SCM idea.............
    I tried setting the station class mark to indicate a lower
    max power level, so the system won't try to order the
    phone to the maximum level.

    I found that it makes no difference on verizon's system.
    It maxes the phone to full power no matter what.
    The system evidently ignores any power control systems.

    It probably orders every phone to 3W, and every phone
    will go up to the maximum the hardware will allow.
     
  6. Al Klein

    Al Klein Guest

    On Tue, 02 Dec 2003 00:57:53 GMT, nospam@home.com (Larry W4CSC) posted
    in alt.cellular.verizon:

    >On Mon, 01 Dec 2003 23:29:33 GMT, "N9WOS"
    ><n9wos@nobug.worldnet.att.net> wrote:


    >>It was on the A side (cingular)
    >>Sleep current was a few milliamps.
    >>Idle current was around 100miliamps.
    >>Active (backlight on) current was 200 milliamps.
    >>In call was 500 milliamps (0.5A)
    >>TX power was 120 mw.


    >>The thing cranked up to 1.5A in call.
    >>I checked the TX level and it was at full 3W.
    >>I tried with another call, 1.5A 3W
    >>I tried the A side again 0.5A 120mw
    >>I tried the B side again 1.5A 3W


    >Wow, efficiency SUCKS! 1.5A x 13V is over 19 WATTS INPUT! It only
    >puts out 3 watts??!! Geez, it's input is over 6.5W to get a measily
    >120mw out the box. This ain't right, man! Your bag needs a TUNEUP!


    2.4 watts in active, Larry, so only 4 watts in for 120mw out. Better,
    but still stinko efficiency.

    >STAND CLEAR! WE DON'T WANT ANYONE BURNED!!


    Heh! Ever get 600w of 450 MHz lighting up your skin? Reddy Kilowatt
    smarts.
     
  7. N9WOS

    N9WOS Guest

    > >Wow, efficiency SUCKS! 1.5A x 13V is over 19 WATTS INPUT! It only
    > >puts out 3 watts??!! Geez, it's input is over 6.5W to get a measily
    > >120mw out the box. This ain't right, man! Your bag needs a TUNEUP!

    >
    > 2.4 watts in active, Larry, so only 4 watts in for 120mw out. Better,
    > but still stinko efficiency.


    If you want a phone that sucks in regard to efficiency, I have two.

    First one, my beloved 3W TDMA car phone.
    The main cellular phone case is about 2.5 inches high,
    4 inches wide and 8 inches long.

    The phone draws 200ma in idle mode, with ignition off.
    It draws 500ma in active mode (ignition on and display on)
    It draws about 1A on TX low power/TDMA
    It draws a good 2A on TX full power analog 3W.

    Regulator on car is set to 14V.
    So it's dissipating 28 Watts when in TX mode at full power.

    Another unit I have is a AMPS nokia car phone,
    that is not currently in use.
    It is a true 100% USDA approved car phone.
    It isn't even capable of being used as a bag phone.
    It is designed to be bracket mounted in the car.
    It has a deep fined heat sink running down one side of it.
    Size is 1.5 inches high, 5 inches wide and 8 inches long.

    It draws 200ma in idle.
    It draws 250ma in active mode
    it draws a good 1A in TX on low power.
    It draws a good 2.5A in TX on high power.

    It would be dissipating a good 35W when in
    TX mode with the car voltage regulator set to 14V
    All to get 3W output.
    Now that is inefficient! :)
     
  8. plane

    plane Guest

    "N9WOS" <n9wos@nobug.worldnet.att.net> wrote in message news:<x9Qyb.137999$Ec1.5632383@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>...
    > I just discovered an odd situation.
    >
    > Normally a bag phone, older AMPS hand held,
    > newer digital phone that is in amps mode will
    > use active power control to limit TX power
    > to the minimum necessary.
    >
    > It saves a heck of a lot on battery life too.
    > Just like it does with digital modes
    >
    > But I was checking a bag phone I just got a while ago.
    > That being a Motorola "soft pack" transportable phone.
    > I was checking sleep, idle, active, and in call current draw.
    >
    > It was on the A side (cingular)
    > Sleep current was a few milliamps.
    > Idle current was around 100miliamps.
    > Active (backlight on) current was 200 milliamps.
    > In call was 500 milliamps (0.5A)
    > TX power was 120 mw.
    >
    > That was pretty good. It is a newer phone that most
    > of the other analog only phones I have, and it
    > uses discreet components in the PA section instead
    > of a monolithic amp like the older ones.
    > The other 3W Motorola phones I have normally
    > draw about 150ma in idle mode, and 200 in active mode.
    > So a savings of 50ma in idle mode compared to the older ones.
    >
    > But I switched it over to verizon's side (B side) for the heck of it
    > and I found something odd.
    > I had never checked TX level on verizon's side.
    > And I assumed that it would be the same
    > because they now share the same tower.
    > Wrong!
    > The thing cranked up to 1.5A in call.
    > I checked the TX level and it was at full 3W.
    > I tried with another call, 1.5A 3W
    > I tried the A side again 0.5A 120mw
    > I tried the B side again 1.5A 3W
    >
    > Checked a few other 3W phones here and same result
    > Checked a few handheld phones, same result.
    >
    > So I ask this.....
    > Can any of you on this board, that is close to a verizon tower,
    > check your phone to see what power level it operates
    > at in analog mode?
    > Is your phone using TX power control in analog mode,
    > or is it running full bore?
    >
    > Having the TX level maxed out like that will
    > Not help in the battery life and talk time situation.
    >
    > It can make the difference between a bag phone
    > Having 5 hours of talk time in analog mode or 1 hour.
    > Same for a hand held phone.
    >
    > If they are no longer using active power control on the
    > old amps system, I can see why battery life drains so quickly
    > when in analog mode.
    > (I mean more quickly than it should.)
    > The "one hour" analog talk time is a worse case situation,
    > not the norm, or it shouldn't be the norm unless you are
    > far away from a tower.



    My memory on this may be wrong, but I believe that some of these moto
    bags can be programmed to limit out put to something like .6
    watts---which could be changed should the need arise. If this is
    true, a little research should reveal how to do this. The various #
    codes that were applicable this these phones were quite lengthy.
     
  9. N9WOS

    N9WOS Guest

    > My memory on this may be wrong, but I believe that some of these moto
    > bags can be programmed to limit out put to something like .6
    > watts---which could be changed should the need arise. If this is
    > true, a little research should reveal how to do this. The various #
    > codes that were applicable this these phones were quite lengthy.


    Yes, a lot of moto transportable/mobile phones have this feature.
    It is in the (FCN)(1) menu, and it is called "extended talk time"
    (EXTEND TALK).
    It limits TX to 0.6W

    The menu item will be available depending on the wiring harness
    you have plugged into the phone.
    The 25pin plug has a mobile/transportable select line.
    If you have the wiring harness for a bag phone plugged in,
    it should have the extended talk time feature in the menu
    if the phone supports it.

    If you have the installed car phone harness plugged in, it
    will not show that feature in the menu.

    Nokia also supports that feature on their bag phones.
     
  10. Larry W4CSC

    Larry W4CSC Guest

    On Tue, 02 Dec 2003 02:30:26 GMT, "N9WOS"
    <n9wos@nobug.worldnet.att.net> wrote:

    >
    >The amp in the cell phones looks to be a class AB design
    >with variable base current.
    >less harmonic distortion is produce so less filtering is needed.
    >Maximum efficiency is under 50%
    >Looks to be a predecessor to the modern
    >CDMA, final amp design
    >About 450 ma is base load draw for TX operation
    >1A is going into the final PA at full power.
    >At 9V, 9W in 3W out, 6W loss, around, 33% efficient.
    >At 12V, 12W in, 3W out, 9W loss, around 25% efficient.
    >Current draw doesn't change with voltage.


    Hmm...AMPS is plain old FM. Why would they need a linear amp for FM?
    Doesn't make sense. Of course, it IS Motorola...(c;
    >
    >The full power TX draw is a little more than
    >the other Motorola transportables I have.
    >They normally draw about 1.1A to 1.2A
    >But the low power current draw is lower.
    >500ma instead of 700ma for a 120mw signal.
    >So the variable bas current amp has it's strong points
    >and its bad points.


    My Bird with the 800 Mhz 10W slug in it shows a nice honest 3.2W
    output to my dB Products 11-element beam. Reflected power is hard to
    read after I trimmed up the gamma match and adjusted its sleeve
    capacitor to get the reactance out of it. I thought the slug wasn't
    making contact but it jumped right up when I touched the driven
    element end.
    >
    >>Geez, it's input is over 6.5W to get a measily
    >> 120mw out the box. This ain't right, man! Your bag needs a TUNEUP!

    >
    >The signal processors, audio amps, preamp sections that operates during
    >TX is the primary load at that level.
    >The PA section will pull around 4X the output power, or about 40 to 50ma.
    >The rest of the power is drawn by the other operating equipment.
    >You will have around 6W draw, no mater what the output.
    >

    I still don't understand why an FM transmitter would use anything but
    a Class C amp. It doesn't need to be linear, at all.
    >>
    >> What's the SWR on the antenna look like? You got a Bird with an 800
    >> Mhz slug? You might have antenna troubles making it draw so much.

    >
    >The swr is good, less than 1.3 to 1.
    >with the final RF amp design that Motorola, nokia and other producers use
    >in 3W phones, when the antenna detunes, it loses coupling with the PA,
    >so it draws less current when the antenna is messes up.
    >The signal runs through the duplexer, and the duplexer will look like an
    >open load to the PA when the antenna is shorted, or open.
    >Unless the load matches the impedance of the duplexer, it will not
    >transfer power.


    Too bad we can't have a 600 Khz, 2 meter duplexer that size....(c; I
    got a 10 meter, 6-cavity duplexer out in my storage building. Looks
    like a propane truck lost its load!....
    >
    >The rubber duck antennas that come with the phones usually don't
    >match the output very well, so the phone draws less current in TX.


    Mine has a sleeve (in rubber of course) groundplane on it. Actually,
    stuck to the end of the Bird, it's about 1.2:1 which isn't too shabby.
    >
    >> If that thing is really drawing 1.5A for 3W, you need to tune it up!
    >> It's drawin' almost twice what my TX200 draws!

    >
    >I would try a few different antennas on that unit, and see if it has
    >the SCM set properly in the nam programming.


    The Bird shows over 3W so it must be fine. Works good on both VZW and
    Alltel out in the boonies.
    >
    >ALL the nokias I have will draw 1.4A to 1.6A in full power TX.
    >So this Motorola unit pretty much follows along with their power
    >consumption.
    >

    That would indicate a linear amp. I still wonder WHY??


    Larry W4CSC

    NNNN
     
  11. Larry W4CSC

    Larry W4CSC Guest

    That's what I'd suspect, here. None of my 3W phones ever drew less
    current as you got closer to the towers, or even to the "Cheater
    Repeater" over at VZW's store in the mall.

    Wanna bet we can saturate that repeater's output amp?....(c;

    On Tue, 02 Dec 2003 03:28:30 GMT, "N9WOS"
    <n9wos@nobug.worldnet.att.net> wrote:

    >
    >> and see if it has the SCM set properly in the nam programming.

    >
    >Nick the SCM idea.............
    >I tried setting the station class mark to indicate a lower
    >max power level, so the system won't try to order the
    >phone to the maximum level.
    >
    >I found that it makes no difference on verizon's system.
    >It maxes the phone to full power no matter what.
    >The system evidently ignores any power control systems.
    >
    >It probably orders every phone to 3W, and every phone
    >will go up to the maximum the hardware will allow.
    >
    >


    Larry W4CSC

    NNNN
     
  12. Larry W4CSC

    Larry W4CSC Guest

    On Tue, 02 Dec 2003 03:35:09 GMT, Al Klein <rukbat@pern.org> wrote:

    >
    >Heh! Ever get 600w of 450 MHz lighting up your skin? Reddy Kilowatt
    >smarts.


    Yes! I have a friend who owned a paging company for many years. He
    had transmitters on every paging band from 150-900 Mhz. I been burned
    a time or two...(c;

    Ever been burned leaning against the door of a ham HF mobile station?
    My rig is a Yaesu FT-900 transceiver into a modified TenTec Hercules
    II linear that only draws about 120A on RTTY. Puts out an honest 650W
    if the load is close to matched. Antenna is a 15' "Texas Bugcatcher"
    of my own design with 6" loading coil(s) at 1/3 up and a 36", 8-spoke
    capacitor hat at 2/3 up. It loads on 20 meters with NO COILS at full
    height. The car body will burn you if you lean against it on 75 or
    160 meters. The antenna has two loading coils in series to resonate
    down to 1.8 Mhz on the "top band". On both 75 and 160M the top of the
    whip and ends of the capacitor hat wires all have amazing coronas,
    even in clear air conditions. "Hey, you! YOUR ANTENNA IS ON FIRE!!",
    they scream at you from passing cars on the Interstate....(c;

    Makes ya feel SO proud....

    Larry W4CSC

    NNNN
     
  13. Larry W4CSC

    Larry W4CSC Guest

    That's not inefficient! My IMTS with tubes and a Dynamotor....THAT'S
    inefficient!!

    OF course, hearing the Dynamotor wind up as soon as you lift the
    receiver while its warming up the final filaments.....is cool!


    Larry W4CSC

    NNNN
     
  14. Larry W4CSC

    Larry W4CSC Guest

    On Tue, 02 Dec 2003 16:04:31 GMT, "N9WOS"
    <n9wos@nobug.worldnet.att.net> wrote:

    >> My memory on this may be wrong, but I believe that some of these moto
    >> bags can be programmed to limit out put to something like .6
    >> watts---which could be changed should the need arise. If this is
    >> true, a little research should reveal how to do this. The various #
    >> codes that were applicable this these phones were quite lengthy.

    >
    >Yes, a lot of moto transportable/mobile phones have this feature.
    >It is in the (FCN)(1) menu, and it is called "extended talk time"
    >(EXTEND TALK).
    >It limits TX to 0.6W
    >
    >The menu item will be available depending on the wiring harness
    >you have plugged into the phone.
    >The 25pin plug has a mobile/transportable select line.
    >If you have the wiring harness for a bag phone plugged in,
    >it should have the extended talk time feature in the menu
    >if the phone supports it.


    You gots any information on the pinout and jumpers for that plug?
    I've never found any for the TX200. My plug has two open wires taped
    off on it. I can't imagine what they are for, unless it's a horn
    relay. I'd love to have some info on these possiblities....including
    the lengthy programming codes.....please..(c;
    >
    >If you have the installed car phone harness plugged in, it
    >will not show that feature in the menu.
    >
    >Nokia also supports that feature on their bag phones.
    >
    >

    I presume, since my DC cable is the cigarette lighter plug, it's wired
    for 12V cars. I've never seen any menu selection for it.


    Larry W4CSC

    NNNN
     
  15. N9WOS

    N9WOS Guest

    > Too bad we can't have a 600 Khz, 2 meter duplexer that size....(c; I
    > got a 10 meter, 6-cavity duplexer out in my storage building. Looks
    > like a propane truck lost its load!....


    Don't get started on miniature grain silo..... I mean 2M duplexers. :)
    The military surplus UHF gold plated cavity ones are the neatest ones.
    At first sight a person would think you have stack of gold cylinders
    in your car!


    > On Tue, 02 Dec 2003 02:30:26 GMT, "N9WOS"
    > Hmm...AMPS is plain old FM. Why would they need a linear amp for FM?
    > Doesn't make sense. Of course, it IS Motorola...(c;


    > That would indicate a linear amp. I still wonder WHY??


    The only filtering after the signal generation is the matching network
    and the duplexer.
    It has to go through two amp stages to make it to the duplexer.
    If they was class C, or even class B, you would need heavy duty
    actively tuned band pass networks between the stages and on the
    output of the final to keep the signal clean, and keep any inband
    harmonics from showing up in the receive range.

    And having a stable 9mw output from the final would be
    very hard if it was set up to operate in any class where
    there is no base current at zero level.
    And the lowest wattage setting on a bag phone, or any analog
    phone is around 9mw.
    So you have to have stable amplification right at the
    0V/cross over point for the amp.

    And if you feed an FM signal into a non linear amp without
    filtering, the skirts will become a mile wide.
    It is not an FM signal feeding a single frequency amp with
    heavy fixed frequency filtering to keep the bandwidth in limits.

    It is an fm signal feeding a wideband amp with a minimum
    bandwidth of 860Mhz to 900Mhz.
    And the target bandwidth is 0.030Mhz

    That is why they use class,AB, on the final,
    and probably use straight class A on the preamp
    It seems that they bias the final to keep it
    almost at class A but not quite.
    And, if you look at the older style phones with the
    monolithic brick amps, you will find that those amps
    are class AB.

    And nokia uses straight class A amps on their output.
    They are rated for multi signal wide band operation.
    You could send ten carriers though it without any
    intermod or other distortion.
    That is why pull the higher currents during TX.

    The older Motorolas with the fixed bias amp
    was operating in the class AB range during
    3W operation, and pretty much straight
    class A at the lower power levels
     
  16. N9WOS

    N9WOS Guest


    > You gots any information on the pinout and jumpers for that plug?
    > I've never found any for the TX200. My plug has two open wires taped
    > off on it. I can't imagine what they are for, unless it's a horn
    > relay. I'd love to have some info on these possiblities....including
    > the lengthy programming codes.....please..(c;


    (N9WOS gets a disappointed look on his face.)

    Larry....... I have pointed you to the Motorola bible before.
    It has all the info you need.
    Just search for it on google.
    And all the plugs have a standard pinout.
    You either have a 15 pin, 25pin, or 32 pin plug on your unit.
    Look up the pinout for the plug with that many pins, then
    you got it. :p

    They didn't change the pinouts of the plugs for the life of the production.
    A transceiver with a 25 pin plug will have the same pinout as any
    other unit with a 25 pin plug, irrelevant of model.
    And wiring harnesses will interchange without problem.

    And the two wires is most likely for a microphone and speaker
    for hands free operation in a car.

    > I presume, since my DC cable is the cigarette lighter plug, it's wired
    > for 12V cars. I've never seen any menu selection for it.


    Not all phones have the feature, but the ones with it will show
    it when hooked to a plug that has the transportable\mobile select line
    wired to the transportable mode.
     
  17. Larry W4CSC

    Larry W4CSC Guest

    On Wed, 03 Dec 2003 01:15:33 GMT, "N9WOS"
    <n9wos@nobug.worldnet.att.net> wrote:

    >
    >The only filtering after the signal generation is the matching network
    >and the duplexer.
    >It has to go through two amp stages to make it to the duplexer.
    >If they was class C, or even class B, you would need heavy duty
    >actively tuned band pass networks between the stages and on the
    >output of the final to keep the signal clean, and keep any inband
    >harmonics from showing up in the receive range.


    Huh? The 2nd harmonic is 1600 Mhz! That's easy to filter out. There
    aren't any "inband harmonics". The band ain't THAT wide...(c;
    >
    >And having a stable 9mw output from the final would be
    >very hard if it was set up to operate in any class where
    >there is no base current at zero level.
    >And the lowest wattage setting on a bag phone, or any analog
    >phone is around 9mw.
    >So you have to have stable amplification right at the
    >0V/cross over point for the amp.


    Now, power control may be the "why"......that's more like it. But,
    alas, power control in 2003 is just another pin on the output power
    amp brick.....from 0 watts to full power on class C amps. It changes
    the bias and RF, simultaneously.
    >
    >And if you feed an FM signal into a non linear amp without
    >filtering, the skirts will become a mile wide.
    >It is not an FM signal feeding a single frequency amp with
    >heavy fixed frequency filtering to keep the bandwidth in limits.


    Nope....Every FM transmitter on the planet is a Class C amp. Hear the
    distortion in Rap 95.5? Oh, wait, that distortion is what's sold as
    Music...(c; The skirts on FM are related to the highest modulating
    frequency and the deviation. This isn't amplitude modulation, which
    mixes. Phase modulated signals are also Class C amp'd.
    >
    >It is an fm signal feeding a wideband amp with a minimum
    >bandwidth of 860Mhz to 900Mhz.
    >And the target bandwidth is 0.030Mhz


    Limit the highest modulating frequency with an audio filter and limit
    the deviation of the carrier and you've controlled bandwidth. 30 Khz
    is easy. Any cheap ham 2M rig is only about 8-10 Khz wide, through
    its Class C power brick driven like hell. A simple low pass filter to
    filter out 2nd harmonic up completes the circuit. FM through a Class
    C amp doesn't have intermodulation distortion AM does.
    >
    >That is why they use class,AB, on the final,
    >and probably use straight class A on the preamp
    >It seems that they bias the final to keep it
    >almost at class A but not quite.
    >And, if you look at the older style phones with the
    >monolithic brick amps, you will find that those amps
    >are class AB.


    Probably related to power control. Also, in a bagphone which is just
    a mobile radio in a bag, designers don't have to care about power
    loads, like they do in a handheld portable. It's designed to run off
    a big lead-acid battery with a 60A alternator.
    >


    Larry W4CSC

    NNNN
     
  18. N9WOS

    N9WOS Guest

    > Huh? The 2nd harmonic is 1600 Mhz! That's easy to filter out. There
    > aren't any "inband harmonics". The band ain't THAT wide...(c;


    That is assuming that there is a clean load on it.
    Amps do strange things when the SWR starts going up. :)
    And most people working with cell phones ain't antenna experts.
    The problems isn't what's in the phone, it's what's outside it.

    > Now, power control may be the "why"......that's more like it. But,
    > alas, power control in 2003 is just another pin on the output power
    > amp brick.....from 0 watts to full power on class C amps. It changes
    > the bias and RF, simultaneously.


    Some phones use a variable gain amp.
    The variable gain amps rarely get above
    40% efficiency, so they are not class C on the final stage
    Others use a fixed gain amp.
    They control the output of the preamp that
    drives the filter before it gets to the amp.

    > Nope....Every FM transmitter on the planet is a Class C amp. Hear the
    > distortion in Rap 95.5? Oh, wait, that distortion is what's sold as
    > Music...(c; The skirts on FM are related to the highest modulating
    > frequency and the deviation. This isn't amplitude modulation, which
    > mixes. Phase modulated signals are also Class C amp'd.


    Yea, those are 100KW radio stations,
    not a 3W phone that has been soaked by rain a couple time
    because he leaves the window open when he parks his car,
    and the coax is broke and frayed where the door is pinching it,
    and the antenna is almost worthless because the connections
    in the base have rusted in two, and being feed with 10V to
    20V from a malfunctioning alternator..

    > Limit the highest modulating frequency with an audio filter and limit
    > the deviation of the carrier and you've controlled bandwidth. 30 Khz
    > is easy. Any cheap ham 2M rig is only about 8-10 Khz wide, through
    > its Class C power brick driven like hell. A simple low pass filter to
    > filter out 2nd harmonic up completes the circuit. FM through a Class
    > C amp doesn't have intermodulation distortion AM does.


    As I said before, amps do strange things when presented with
    strange loads. :)
    Especially when you send other carriers from near by cell phone
    on different frequencies back into the final.

    A close by cell phone that is transmitting 1Mhz above the yours.
    The signal energy would be feed back into the final via duplexer.
    you would get a modulating of the final's current that can produce
    a multiple signals at 1Mhz intervals across the band.
    And the signals will flutter as the frequency of the two originating
    carriers change with modulation.
    In class A, that won't happen.

    > Probably related to power control. Also, in a bagphone which is just
    > a mobile radio in a bag, designers don't have to care about power
    > loads, like they do in a handheld portable. It's designed to run off
    > a big lead-acid battery with a 60A alternator.


    Now that I think about it, power control would also be a problem
    Think about a transmitter that has to operate from a little below
    9V up to 15V.
    A class C driver and final would have a hard problem maintaining
    a constant power output in that condition.
    In class A, or AB, the voltage swing is pretty much set by
    the beta of the transistor.
    In class C, it becomes more of a function of drive voltage.
    I don't think that would meet specs very well.

    It would be like some CB radios you can control the
    supply voltage to TUNE the power output. :)
    Heck, I can do that with a lot of 2M ham stuff.
    The HTX 202 I have will go from almost 1W at 6V
    to a good 9W at 15V.
    The belt clip gets pretty warm after a brick key session at 9W. :)
     
  19. Joe Burke

    Joe Burke Guest

    "N9WOS" <n9wos@nobug.worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
    news:r0bzb.378206$0v4.19532959@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
    >
    > > You gots any information on the pinout and jumpers for that plug?
    > > I've never found any for the TX200. My plug has two open wires taped
    > > off on it. I can't imagine what they are for, unless it's a horn
    > > relay. I'd love to have some info on these possiblities....including
    > > the lengthy programming codes.....please..(c;

    >
    > (N9WOS gets a disappointed look on his face.)
    >
    > Larry....... I have pointed you to the Motorola bible before.
    > It has all the info you need.
    > Just search for it on google.
    > And all the plugs have a standard pinout.
    > You either have a 15 pin, 25pin, or 32 pin plug on your unit.
    > Look up the pinout for the plug with that many pins, then
    > you got it. :p
    >
    > They didn't change the pinouts of the plugs for the life of the

    production.
    > A transceiver with a 25 pin plug will have the same pinout as any
    > other unit with a 25 pin plug, irrelevant of model.
    > And wiring harnesses will interchange without problem.
    >
    > And the two wires is most likely for a microphone and speaker
    > for hands free operation in a car.


    Yes, on my bag phone, those 2 wires are for an external mic. I have the mic
    and it plugs right in.

    > > I presume, since my DC cable is the cigarette lighter plug, it's wired
    > > for 12V cars. I've never seen any menu selection for it.

    >
    > Not all phones have the feature, but the ones with it will show
    > it when hooked to a plug that has the transportable\mobile select line
    > wired to the transportable mode.
    >
    >


    Joe
     
  20. Al Klein

    Al Klein Guest

    On Wed, 03 Dec 2003 00:03:51 GMT, nospam@home.com (Larry W4CSC) posted
    in alt.cellular.verizon:

    >Ever been burned leaning against the door of a ham HF mobile station?


    Door? No. Bitten on the lip by a mic, though. Many times. Even
    bitten on the finger by a bug.

    >My rig is a Yaesu FT-900 transceiver into a modified TenTec Hercules
    >II linear that only draws about 120A on RTTY. Puts out an honest 650W
    >if the load is close to matched. Antenna is a 15' "Texas Bugcatcher"
    >of my own design with 6" loading coil(s) at 1/3 up and a 36", 8-spoke
    >capacitor hat at 2/3 up. It loads on 20 meters with NO COILS at full
    >height. The car body will burn you if you lean against it on 75 or
    >160 meters.


    Well of course. You're leaning on the bottom part of the antenna.

    >The antenna has two loading coils in series to resonate
    >down to 1.8 Mhz on the "top band". On both 75 and 160M the top of the
    >whip and ends of the capacitor hat wires all have amazing coronas,
    >even in clear air conditions. "Hey, you! YOUR ANTENNA IS ON FIRE!!",
    >they scream at you from passing cars on the Interstate....(c;


    >Makes ya feel SO proud....


    I hear ya!

    And CBers put neon bulbs on theirs. :)
     

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