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"NationalAccess Minutes of Use"

Discussion in 'alt.cellular.verizon' started by Nobody, Apr 6, 2004.

  1. Peter Pan

    Peter Pan Guest

    CharlesH wrote:
    > In article <c51f90$2n7l80$1@ID-190045.news.uni-berlin.de>,
    > Peter Pan <Marcs1102NOSPAM@Hotmail.com> wrote:
    >> NationalAccess Calling Plans
    >> If you spend an average amount of time on your wireless phone and the
    >> Internet, these plans offer good value.
    >> Starting at just $35 per month, you get an airtime allowance that
    >> can be used for both wireless Internet access and
    >> domestic calling. There are no domestic long distance or domestic
    >> roaming charges coast to coast.

    >
    > What people are generally talking about with MOU is being able to add
    > it as an option on America Choice plans, which include free
    > nights/weekends, and more peak minutes/$ than NSR. As stated by other
    > posters, this option was intended to support higher speeds for Get It
    > Now and picture messaging, but they currently don't treat tethered
    > use differently. The phone knows the difference (my 730 has separate
    > time and byte counters for "internal" and "external" data use), and
    > in the future they could conceivable key off of that to disallow
    > tethered use.


    Yes, that was the point. You unfortunately snipped the following: (While the
    NA-MOU is an option to a current plan, and not a plan by itself, my
    understanding is that when the plan was created and published, the possible
    restrictions on an option that made a current plan equivelent to a published
    plan were removed.)
    The use of an option is not listed whatsoever on the website, and the
    documents I have from Verizon at my store, stating the new policy are all
    marked not for public disclosure, so I tried to find something similar yet
    public. The stuff stated is *NOT* what the current policy is any more. While
    the old info (get it now/tethered use etc, was valid at one time, it is no
    longer). For example, we are in a semi-rural area and are selling a device
    (not made by verizon so I can talk about that part of it at least) that
    interfaces between a burlar/fire alarm in the building, where no land line
    is available, and contacts the security companies computer when the alarm is
    triggered. That uses 1x, and considering it is in a box that is mounted to a
    shelf/wall, I think that is considered "tethered". FYI, for those that
    wonder, we are working on mobile power to allow it to eventually be used on
    12V systems in boats/cars/RV's etc.and to combine a voice module to allow
    regular voice use.
     



    › See More: "NationalAccess Minutes of Use"
  2. CharlesH

    CharlesH Guest

    In article <c51lfe$2nf9lp$1@ID-190045.news.uni-berlin.de>,
    Peter Pan <Marcs1102NOSPAM@Hotmail.com> wrote:
    >CharlesH wrote:
    >> In article <c51f90$2n7l80$1@ID-190045.news.uni-berlin.de>,
    >> Peter Pan <Marcs1102NOSPAM@Hotmail.com> wrote:
    >>> NationalAccess Calling Plans
    >>> If you spend an average amount of time on your wireless phone and the
    >>> Internet, these plans offer good value.
    >>> Starting at just $35 per month, you get an airtime allowance that
    >>> can be used for both wireless Internet access and
    >>> domestic calling. There are no domestic long distance or domestic
    >>> roaming charges coast to coast.

    >>
    >> What people are generally talking about with MOU is being able to add
    >> it as an option on America Choice plans, which include free
    >> nights/weekends, and more peak minutes/$ than NSR. As stated by other
    >> posters, this option was intended to support higher speeds for Get It
    >> Now and picture messaging, but they currently don't treat tethered
    >> use differently. The phone knows the difference (my 730 has separate
    >> time and byte counters for "internal" and "external" data use), and
    >> in the future they could conceivable key off of that to disallow
    >> tethered use.

    >
    >Yes, that was the point. You unfortunately snipped the following: (While the
    >NA-MOU is an option to a current plan, and not a plan by itself, my
    >understanding is that when the plan was created and published, the possible
    >restrictions on an option that made a current plan equivelent to a published
    >plan were removed.)


    I'm not quite following you here. For as long as there has been 1xRTT,
    there has been a published data plan equivalent to NSR on which Express
    Network/National Access MOU was an explicit feature, in addition to the
    data-only (unlimited and per-MB) plans. Tethered use has been explicitly
    supported on all these plans. What is new is the undocumented National
    Access option on AC, and the question of whether tethered use of National
    Access *on AC* (or local plans) is now an approved useage. They may
    well decide that National Access MOU is now a standard feature like QNC,
    with the premium being charged for the new, much faster, EV-DO.
     
  3. Nobody

    Nobody Guest

    "Peter Pan" <Marcs1102NOSPAM@Hotmail.com> wrote in
    news:c51h1h$2m6u3t$1@ID-190045.news.uni-berlin.de:

    >
    >>
    >> thx for the great info guys...is there a monthly ISP charge or is
    >> this strictly a dial-up mechanism I use with my existing IDP?

    >
    > (Not sure what you mean by IDP, I've never heard that term)


    ISP, not IDP!
     
  4. Don

    Don Guest

    > What IS the case is that people who are using NA/MOU 1XRTT tethered data are
    > currently exploiting this 'loophole', which isn't bad or illegal or anything. But, be
    > aware that this 'loophole' may be closed in the future somehow.


    I keep hearing about this "loophole" that we are using which I find
    difficult to understand. When I signed up for my service Express
    Network/Minutes of Use (now called National Access) was listed at no
    charge on my sales slip. If Verizon had not intended it to be used that
    way why would it be shown as such on the sales slip?

    Don
     
  5. Don

    Don Guest

    blu wrote:
    >
    > Thanks, everyone for the responses. I will keep in
    > touch with any updates. Off to buy cable and connect
    > to the internet.


    You can probably buy the Mobile Office Kit on e-bay a lot cheaper than
    from Verizon.
    Don
     
  6. Peter Pan

    Peter Pan Guest

    Don wrote:
    >> What IS the case is that people who are using NA/MOU 1XRTT tethered
    >> data are currently exploiting this 'loophole', which isn't bad or
    >> illegal or anything. But, be aware that this 'loophole' may be
    >> closed in the future somehow.

    >
    > I keep hearing about this "loophole" that we are using which I find
    > difficult to understand. When I signed up for my service Express
    > Network/Minutes of Use (now called National Access) was listed at no
    > charge on my sales slip. If Verizon had not intended it to be used
    > that way why would it be shown as such on the sales slip?
    >
    > Don


    It's easy to understand if you realize that there is no loophole, and there
    is no problem with it. Just a rant started by some paranoid/whacky people.
    Don't believe in people making stupid claims with no support or herd
    instinct? How many emails have you gotten from otherwise reasonable people
    that end with something like "Send this message on to xxxx other people or
    you will suffer from bad luck"... :)
     
  7. Elector

    Elector Guest

    "Peter Pan" <Marcs1102NOSPAM@Hotmail.com> wrote in message
    news:c51h1h$2m6u3t$1@ID-190045.news.uni-berlin.de...
    >
    > >
    > > thx for the great info guys...is there a monthly ISP charge or is this
    > > strictly a dial-up mechanism I use with my existing IDP?

    >
    > (Not sure what you mean by IDP, I've never heard that term)

    <snip>

    It was probably a mistype. IDP is what you do to Rogue ISP's that harbor
    spammers and or shelter kook posters. Its called "Internet Death Penalty"
    and it is something that has to be discussed and voted on you can read more
    on this at another of my favorite groups news:news.admin.net-abuse.email and
    other groups like it.

    I think the poster meant "ISP"

    Elector
     
  8. 4500

    4500 Guest

    On Wed, 7 Apr 2004 22:58:16 -0700, "Peter Pan"
    <Marcs1102NOSPAM@Hotmail.com> wrote:
    >It's easy to understand if you realize that there is no loophole, and there
    >is no problem with it. Just a rant started by some paranoid/whacky people.
    >Don't believe in people making stupid claims with no support or herd
    >instinct? How many emails have you gotten from otherwise reasonable people
    >that end with something like "Send this message on to xxxx other people or
    >you will suffer from bad luck"... :)
    >


    There is no need to resort to personal attacks and call others
    paranoid just because you don't agree with them. I've never sent any
    private messages to anyone and really don't care whether you or others
    use this loophole (which I believe it is) or not.

    I do, however, want to make sure these newsgroups provide sound
    information to those who come here needing information advice.

    It is certainly the case that anyone with NA on their account (which
    includes most people who can use Get-It-Now on America's Choice plans)
    can currently use NA with tethered access. We can argue about whether
    this is inteneded or a loophole, but I think we agree it is
    technically possible right now and that many people are doing this
    wihout paying for any additional data plans.

    It is also the case that Verizon has said repeatedly that those who
    want to use NA for such data access should purchase a separate data
    plan. The instructions with the Mobile Office Kit, for examlpe, make
    it very clear that data access (other than GIN) requires additional
    fees/plans. Also, I'm not aware from this newsgroup that anyone has
    ever been told by Verizon sales or CS that this use is allowed. In
    fact, as far as I know, virtually every call to CS indicates that this
    is not an intended use.

    So, you can call this situation (in which it is possible to do what
    Verizon clearly does not intend) whatever you want and I'll not call
    you names or suggest you have some mental illness because you express
    your opinion. To me this circumstance walks like a loophole and
    quacks like a loophole, so I'll consider it a loophole.

    Finally, none of us knows whether or when Verizon will stop this
    unintended use of NA without a separate data plan. I do think it is
    possible, as another poster wrote, that Verizon will at some point
    just make this usage completely authorized once the faster EVDO
    services become the premium data services. Hopefully at that point
    this long debate can end.
     
  9. AP

    AP Guest

    In article <1081444142.316272@sj-nntpcache-5>, dhorwitz@NOSPAMcisco.com
    says...
    >
    > "4500" <4500@no.where> wrote .
    > >
    > > So, you can call this situation (in which it is possible to do what
    > > Verizon clearly does not intend)

    >
    > ??? I didn't see that in my contract. (of course I didn't look too
    > hard). For example I have heard that Sprint's contracts (used to?)
    > say that the data usage was not intended for tethered use.
    >

    Can someone explain to me what "tethered use" is?


    AP
     
  10. 4500

    4500 Guest

    On Thu, 8 Apr 2004 10:10:53 -0700, "Quick" <dhorwitz@NOSPAMcisco.com>
    wrote:
    >"4500" <4500@no.where> wrote .
    >>
    >> So, you can call this situation (in which it is possible to do what
    >> Verizon clearly does not intend)

    >
    >??? I didn't see that in my contract. (of course I didn't look too
    >hard). For example I have heard that Sprint's contracts (used to?)
    >say that the data usage was not intended for tethered use.
    >
    >-Quick


    Your contract probably also does not say that you can sell the
    Brooklyn Bridge, but I don't think that means you are granted that
    right by ommission of such a prohibition. : )

    This is clearly a loophole. Verizon seems to be allowing it to be
    exploited, which adds to the confusion. Nevertheless, it is not
    Verizon;s official policy to allow tethered use of NA without paying
    for a data plan. Just ask any CS or store rep. and this will be
    confirmed.

    This should be obvious to us logically. Why would Verizon offer a $79
    data plan but offer it at no other charge on voice plans costing much
    less? Who would buy a data plan if that were the case?

    I expect Verizon would have already closed this loophole if EVDO were
    not coming so soon. At this point Verizon probably figures it is not
    worth the potential public relations damage of closing it when all
    attention will turn to the faster EVDO when it comes out. I expect NA
    will become an official MOU service soon after the EVDO plans are
    offered nationwide. If so, we're probably discussing something that
    is moot anyway.
     
  11. 4500

    4500 Guest

    On Thu, 08 Apr 2004 17:26:00 GMT, AP <cat@eveningstar.dyndns.org>
    wrote:

    >In article <1081444142.316272@sj-nntpcache-5>, dhorwitz@NOSPAMcisco.com
    >says...
    >Can someone explain to me what "tethered use" is?
    >
    >AP


    It means connecting to data services by connecting your phone to a
    computer (desktop, laptop, PDA, etc.) with a cable instead of using
    the data services directly on the phone (like WAP and GIN) without
    connecting the phone to some other physical device.
     
  12. Quick

    Quick Guest

    "AP" <cat@eveningstar.dyndns.org> wrote in message
    news:MPG.1adf471fd0d26ed989759@news.dallas.sbcglobal.net...
    > In article <1081444142.316272@sj-nntpcache-5>, dhorwitz@NOSPAMcisco.com
    > says...
    > >
    > > "4500" <4500@no.where> wrote .
    > > >
    > > > So, you can call this situation (in which it is possible to do what
    > > > Verizon clearly does not intend)

    > >
    > > ??? I didn't see that in my contract. (of course I didn't look too
    > > hard). For example I have heard that Sprint's contracts (used to?)
    > > say that the data usage was not intended for tethered use.
    > >

    > Can someone explain to me what "tethered use" is?


    Refers to using your phone as a modem for (usually) your laptop.
    You connect it with a cable and thus it's "tethered".

    The implication is that the data usage will be much greater and for
    longer periods of time in this application than quick browsing, GIN,
    Pic Msg, etc. from the phone itself.

    -Quick
     
  13. On Wed, 07 Apr 2004 08:29:31 -0700, Dapper Dave wrote:

    > With the cable (which you can buy bundled with software, called the
    > Mobile Office Kit), you can connect to the Internet at 14.4 kbps, using
    > minutes just like voice calls. Nights and weekends are free, if nights
    > and weekends are free for voice calls.


    Actually, you don't need the mobile office kit at all. Just use a phone
    that has modem capabilities (is compatible with the MOK), install the
    FutureDial USB drivers, use the FutureDial USB cable for your phone, and
    then set up the phone as a "14.4 generic modem" on your Windows PC.

    Set up your dialup internet connection using the "14.4 generic modem"
    selection and you're online at 14.4 through your cellphone.

    I do it all the time to check my email when I'm at a hotel that charges for
    outside local calls, or I need to send/get email while in the car. It's
    slow compared to modern standards, but 14.4 works fine for text mail.

    You can buy the FutureDial cable from RadioShack and download the driver
    free from the FutureDial website. A lot less $$ than the MOK.
     
  14. Quick

    Quick Guest

    "4500" <4500@no.where> wrote
    > On Thu, 8 Apr 2004 10:10:53 -0700, "Quick" <dhorwitz@NOSPAMcisco.com>
    >
    > This should be obvious to us logically. Why would Verizon offer a $79
    > data plan but offer it at no other charge on voice plans costing much
    > less? Who would buy a data plan if that were the case?


    How about a mobile office application? You're constantly on the
    move and need to be connected much of the time or frequently.
    You end up using a few hours a day. Lets see... 3 hours a day,
    5 days a week, = roughly 3,600 minutes a month. The 3,500 min
    AC plan runs about $200/month. $79/month sounds like a better
    deal to me?

    There are also a few people who don't have suitable (or have
    gotten rid of) wireline service at their homes and use their cell
    phones as their only internet access method.

    -Quick
     
  15. 4500

    4500 Guest

    On Thu, 08 Apr 2004 17:36:38 GMT, Traveling Man <none@none.com> wrote:

    >On Wed, 07 Apr 2004 08:29:31 -0700, Dapper Dave wrote:
    >You can buy the FutureDial cable from RadioShack and download the driver
    >free from the FutureDial website. A lot less $$ than the MOK.


    The MOK retails for $39.99 and includes additional software to manage
    phonebooks. (It is also available at a discount for business
    accounts.)

    What is the price of the FutureDial cable? Does it include the
    additional software to manage phonebook? I'm sure it's cheaper, as
    you said, but as far as I know it does not include any additional
    software other than free drivers.
     
  16. 4500

    4500 Guest

    On Thu, 8 Apr 2004 10:50:13 -0700, "Quick" <dhorwitz@NOSPAMcisco.com>
    wrote:

    >
    >"4500" <4500@no.where> wrote
    >> On Thu, 8 Apr 2004 10:10:53 -0700, "Quick" <dhorwitz@NOSPAMcisco.com>
    >>
    >> This should be obvious to us logically. Why would Verizon offer a $79
    >> data plan but offer it at no other charge on voice plans costing much
    >> less? Who would buy a data plan if that were the case?

    >
    >How about a mobile office application? You're constantly on the
    >move and need to be connected much of the time or frequently.
    >You end up using a few hours a day. Lets see... 3 hours a day,
    >5 days a week, = roughly 3,600 minutes a month. The 3,500 min
    >AC plan runs about $200/month. $79/month sounds like a better
    >deal to me?
    >
    >There are also a few people who don't have suitable (or have
    >gotten rid of) wireline service at their homes and use their cell
    >phones as their only internet access method.
    >
    >-Quick
    >


    That's a good point, and I think you're right that the NA data plan
    would be cheper if someone needs to use the tethered service mostly
    during peak hours. But for people who primarily want to use it in
    off-peak hours with free nights and weekends on AC plans, that would
    not be the case. Essentially, tethered data service would be free to
    them vs. $79/month for the data plan.
     
  17. Quick

    Quick Guest

    "4500" <4500@no.where> wrote
    > On Thu, 8 Apr 2004 10:50:13 -0700, "Quick" <dhorwitz@NOSPAMcisco.com>
    > wrote:
    >
    > >
    > >"4500" <4500@no.where> wrote
    > >> On Thu, 8 Apr 2004 10:10:53 -0700, "Quick" <dhorwitz@NOSPAMcisco.com>
    > >>
    > >> This should be obvious to us logically. Why would Verizon offer a $79
    > >> data plan but offer it at no other charge on voice plans costing much
    > >> less? Who would buy a data plan if that were the case?

    > >
    > >How about a mobile office application? You're constantly on the
    > >move and need to be connected much of the time or frequently.
    > >You end up using a few hours a day. Lets see... 3 hours a day,
    > >5 days a week, = roughly 3,600 minutes a month. The 3,500 min
    > >AC plan runs about $200/month. $79/month sounds like a better
    > >deal to me?
    > >
    > >There are also a few people who don't have suitable (or have
    > >gotten rid of) wireline service at their homes and use their cell
    > >phones as their only internet access method.
    > >
    > >-Quick
    > >

    >
    > That's a good point, and I think you're right that the NA data plan
    > would be cheper if someone needs to use the tethered service mostly
    > during peak hours. But for people who primarily want to use it in
    > off-peak hours with free nights and weekends on AC plans, that would
    > not be the case. Essentially, tethered data service would be free to
    > them vs. $79/month for the data plan.


    The carriers really don't care about off peak. That's why it's all
    unlimited.
    The network is engineered for peak usage. Off peak it's greatly under
    utilized. Data or voice doesn't matter.

    -Quick
     
  18. Peter Pan

    Peter Pan Guest

    4500 wrote:
    > On Wed, 7 Apr 2004 22:58:16 -0700, "Peter Pan"
    > <Marcs1102NOSPAM@Hotmail.com> wrote:
    >> It's easy to understand if you realize that there is no loophole,
    >> and there is no problem with it. Just a rant started by some
    >> paranoid/whacky people. Don't believe in people making stupid claims
    >> with no support or herd instinct? How many emails have you gotten
    >> from otherwise reasonable people that end with something like "Send
    >> this message on to xxxx other people or you will suffer from bad
    >> luck"... :)
    >>

    >
    > There is no need to resort to personal attacks and call others
    > paranoid just because you don't agree with them. I've never sent any
    > private messages to anyone and really don't care whether you or others
    > use this loophole (which I believe it is) or not.
    >

    <Incorrect info snipped>

    Sorry you feel it is personal, just because you are WRONG, sorry you take it
    personally.. specifically under Mobile Access on the verizon website it
    says:
    Take care of business virtually anytime, anywhere
    With NationalAccess, Verizon Wireless' national wireless Internet service,
    you're never out of the loop,
    even when you're out of the office. NationalAccess enables users to access
    the Internet, corporate email,
    attachments, and business applications with a laptop at typical speeds of
    40-60 kbps and bursts up to 144 kbps.

    <New Paragraph Section>

    NationalAccess Calling Plans
    If you spend an average amount of time on your wireless phone and the
    Internet, these plans offer good value.
    Starting at just $35 per month, you get an airtime allowance that can be
    used for both wireless Internet access and
    domestic calling. There are no domestic long distance or domestic roaming
    charges coast to coast.
    ====================================
    Notice the statement "you get an airtime allowance that can be used for both
    wireless Internet access and
    domestic calling".
    Obviously that is intended for mobile or tethered use....

    Now admittedly, that is what has only been on the website for a month or
    two, and it may/may not have been true in the past, but the rumour started
    before that statement was put on the website, and it is definately not true
    now.
     
  19. CharlesH

    CharlesH Guest

    In article <662b70998oc13v16ck48dus8i8cq1mjoqu@4ax.com>,
    4500 <4500@no.where> wrote:
    >On Thu, 8 Apr 2004 10:10:53 -0700, "Quick" <dhorwitz@NOSPAMcisco.com>
    >wrote:
    >This should be obvious to us logically. Why would Verizon offer a $79
    >data plan but offer it at no other charge on voice plans costing much
    >less? Who would buy a data plan if that were the case?


    Note that NSR + free MOU option = "National Access" data plan. As long
    as you can deal with NO nights/weekend package.

    The $79 data plan offers unlimited, *any time*, data-only usage. The
    "issue" with MOU on AC is, I think, the unlimited night/weekend minutes.
    The $79 plan buys you the unlimited *peak* minutes.
     
  20. Dapper Dave

    Dapper Dave Guest

    >"Quick" <dhorwitz@NOSPAMcisco.com> wrote:

    >
    >"4500" <4500@no.where> wrote
    >> On Thu, 8 Apr 2004 10:10:53 -0700, "Quick" <dhorwitz@NOSPAMcisco.com>
    >>
    >> This should be obvious to us logically. Why would Verizon offer a $79
    >> data plan but offer it at no other charge on voice plans costing much
    >> less? Who would buy a data plan if that were the case?

    >
    >How about a mobile office application? You're constantly on the
    >move and need to be connected much of the time or frequently.
    >You end up using a few hours a day. Lets see... 3 hours a day,
    >5 days a week, = roughly 3,600 minutes a month. The 3,500 min
    >AC plan runs about $200/month. $79/month sounds like a better
    >deal to me?
    >
    >There are also a few people who don't have suitable (or have
    >gotten rid of) wireline service at their homes and use their cell
    >phones as their only internet access method.
    >
    >-Quick
    >


    As full-time RVers, that's why we have the $79 plan. It's our only
    Internet access. Between the two of us, we log several hours a day of
    Internet usaage.
     

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