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Verizon and Rollover Minutes

Discussion in 'alt.cellular.verizon' started by susan, Oct 1, 2003.

  1. XFF

    XFF Guest

    scharf@hotmail.com (Steven Scharf) wrote in message news:<4f153f94.0310011838.716dc0a7@posting.google.com>...

    > Verizon has never tried to be the low price leader;
    > their value proposition has always been coverage, and
    > they target customers that care about coverage. With
    > Cingular GSM, you lose so much coverage, both locally
    > (for California), and nationwide, that it isn't a
    > viable choice for people for whom coverage is important.


    Not true on the Cingular Nation plan, you get all the coverage that is
    available for no extra charge. It's a truely great plan.



    › See More: Verizon and Rollover Minutes
  2. Dan W.

    Dan W. Guest

    The problem with Verizons coverage though, is they actually have very
    little. Yes, their plans include massive areas, but largely that is via
    roaming partners. If you look at their "advanced services" map you get
    a better idea of what kind of native verizon coverage you can expect.
    In the far NE, in cali, and in Colorado, Verizon might be the coverage
    king, but here in the south it's pretty sparse with the exception of the
    greater houston area.

    In addition if you look at their spectrum situation, Verizon is at the
    bottom of the list.

    --
    Dan W.
    North Texas
    hominid7 "AT" hotmail "DOT" com



    scharf@hotmail.com (Steven Scharf) wrote in article
    <4f153f94.0310011838.716dc0a7@posting.google.com>:
    > "susan" <susanl@penn.com> wrote in message news:<Vkteb.10940$NX3.10901@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net>...
    > > Any indication that Verizon has ever considered Rollover minutes as a sales
    > > angle?

    >
    > Reminds me of the joke about the lady who complained to
    > her butcher that he charged more than the shop across
    > the street for chickens. He agreed that the price across
    > the street was unbeatable and encouraged her to take
    > advantage of it. She said, "I can't, they don't have any
    > chickens." He said, "lady, when I'm out of chickens I
    > charge lower prices too."
    >
    > Seriously though, Cingular offered rollover as a
    > desperate sales tool. Whether it worked is open
    > to debate; Cingular continues to lose market share,
    > but perhaps they would have lost even more without
    > rollover.
    >
    > Verizon has never tried to be the low price leader;
    > their value proposition has always been coverage, and
    > they target customers that care about coverage. With
    > Cingular GSM, you lose so much coverage, both locally
    > (for California), and nationwide, that it isn't a
    > viable choice for people for whom coverage is important.
    >
    > I had Cingular for a while. I went with them because they
    > were cheap and because GSM appealed to me because I
    > travel to Asia a lot. But while being able to make calls in
    > Taipei and Beijing was nice, it didn't make up for the
    > U.S. coverage.
    >
    > If I were Verizon, I'd try something a little different,
    > that would increase revenue while making customers happy.
    >
    > Rather than gouging when you exceed your plan minutes,
    > automatically shift the customer to the next rate plan
    > up (for that month) if the extra minutes would cost
    > more than the next tier (plus say $5 to discourage
    > people from switching to the lowest cost plan). So if
    > I talk 400 minutes on a 300 minute plan, I pay for the
    > 400 minute plan + $5, rather than paying $40 for 100
    > extra minutes.
    >
    > The up side for Verizon is that it would get customers
    > to use more air time, without worrying so much about going
    > over. The down side is the loss of revenue from customers
    > that continuously go over.


    [posted via phonescoop.com]
  3. penael

    penael Guest

    Although Verizon does try to change the rate plan if customers go over
    their minutes (if they come into a store), I think automatically
    changing one's plan would be like Blockbuster only charging a dollar for
    late fees (revenue).



    > scharf@hotmail.com (Steven Scharf) wrote in article
    > <4f153f94.0310011838.716dc0a7@posting.google.com>:
    > > "susan" <susanl@penn.com> wrote in message news:<Vkteb.10940$NX3.10901@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net>...
    > > > Any indication that Verizon has ever considered Rollover minutes as a sales
    > > > angle?

    > >
    > > Reminds me of the joke about the lady who complained to
    > > her butcher that he charged more than the shop across
    > > the street for chickens. He agreed that the price across
    > > the street was unbeatable and encouraged her to take
    > > advantage of it. She said, "I can't, they don't have any
    > > chickens." He said, "lady, when I'm out of chickens I
    > > charge lower prices too."
    > >
    > > Seriously though, Cingular offered rollover as a
    > > desperate sales tool. Whether it worked is open
    > > to debate; Cingular continues to lose market share,
    > > but perhaps they would have lost even more without
    > > rollover.
    > >
    > > Verizon has never tried to be the low price leader;
    > > their value proposition has always been coverage, and
    > > they target customers that care about coverage. With
    > > Cingular GSM, you lose so much coverage, both locally
    > > (for California), and nationwide, that it isn't a
    > > viable choice for people for whom coverage is important.
    > >
    > > I had Cingular for a while. I went with them because they
    > > were cheap and because GSM appealed to me because I
    > > travel to Asia a lot. But while being able to make calls in
    > > Taipei and Beijing was nice, it didn't make up for the
    > > U.S. coverage.
    > >
    > > If I were Verizon, I'd try something a little different,
    > > that would increase revenue while making customers happy.
    > >
    > > Rather than gouging when you exceed your plan minutes,
    > > automatically shift the customer to the next rate plan
    > > up (for that month) if the extra minutes would cost
    > > more than the next tier (plus say $5 to discourage
    > > people from switching to the lowest cost plan). So if
    > > I talk 400 minutes on a 300 minute plan, I pay for the
    > > 400 minute plan + $5, rather than paying $40 for 100
    > > extra minutes.
    > >
    > > The up side for Verizon is that it would get customers
    > > to use more air time, without worrying so much about going
    > > over. The down side is the loss of revenue from customers
    > > that continuously go over.

    >
    > [posted via phonescoop.com]


    [posted via phonescoop.com]
  4. Mattie

    Mattie Guest

    Well, I can't say that I know about the rest of the US but here in
    Southern Cal, I've found Verizon to be vastly superior in coverage. If
    you look at the coverage maps for Cingular (who I used for my wireless
    service for years) they show similar coverage to Verizon. However, in
    practice, I would constantly lose calls when I was with Cingular even
    along major freeways. Also, I could be sure I would get spotty service
    in lesser populated areas. Whenever I would complain to Cingular, they
    would insist that they are still building towers and coverage will
    improve with time. It never seemed to get better. With Verizon, I very
    seldom lose a call and get solid service even in remote areas that
    were Cingular-free. If I were going strictly for price, I'd go with
    Sprint here in SoCal... but I hear their coverage is even worse than
    Cingular's. Honestly, at the time I switched to Verizon about a year
    and a half ago, I did a price comparison and found, for me, Verizon
    would only be perhaps 10% higher than Cingular or Sprint. I use a
    family plan with 4 phones and make good use of MTM minutes which helps
    considerably. I could be wrong but my impression is that Cingular is
    in a serious slide while Verizon is gaining market share at least here
    in Socal. I can see where rollover minutes would be an asset for
    people that have light usage months followed by heavy usage months. It
    seems that for most of us that use our service a fairly consistent
    amount, Verizon is a better choice. Just my 2 cents...

    Mattie
  5. Booger

    Booger Guest

    "Dan W." <hominid7@hotmail.com> wrote in message
    news:vnok7min9b6480@corp.supernews.com...
    > The problem with Verizons coverage though, is they actually have very
    > little. Yes, their plans include massive areas, but largely that is via
    > roaming partners.


    Who cares as long as it works?
  6. Mattie <mattie@nospam.com> wrote:
    > were Cingular-free. If I were going strictly for price, I'd go with
    > Sprint here in SoCal... but I hear their coverage is even worse than
    > Cingular's.


    My Verizon phone has coverage issues out here in a rural portion of
    Apple Valley, CA where my wife's Sprint phone has good coverage. I'm amazed.
    Sprint isn't known for good rural coverage.

    In more populated areas of SoCal, I've found Verizon and Sprint to both
    work well.

    --
    JustThe.net Internet & Multimedia Services
    22674 Motnocab Road * Apple Valley, CA 92307-1950
    Steve Sobol, Proprietor
    888.480.4NET (4638) * 248.724.4NET * sjsobol@JustThe.net
  7. Booger <nospam@please.com> wrote:
    >
    > "Dan W." <hominid7@hotmail.com> wrote in message
    > news:vnok7min9b6480@corp.supernews.com...
    >> The problem with Verizons coverage though, is they actually have very
    >> little. Yes, their plans include massive areas, but largely that is via
    >> roaming partners.

    >
    > Who cares as long as it works?


    That's incorrect, anyhow.

    Unless you're talking about the Plains, there's
    plenty of native Verizon coverage . Which is not to say they don't have holes,
    but to say they have "very little" coverage is incorrect.

    --
    JustThe.net Internet & Multimedia Services
    22674 Motnocab Road * Apple Valley, CA 92307-1950
    Steve Sobol, Proprietor
    888.480.4NET (4638) * 248.724.4NET * sjsobol@JustThe.net
  8. Dan W.

    Dan W. Guest

    I care because i want data when i travel.

    --
    Dan W.
    North Texas
    hominid7 "AT" hotmail "DOT" com



    "Booger" <nospam@please.com> wrote in article
    <ab9129715f9bf66cea4f5240233eaea9@news.meganetnews.com>:
    >
    > "Dan W." <hominid7@hotmail.com> wrote in message
    > news:vnok7min9b6480@corp.supernews.com...
    > > The problem with Verizons coverage though, is they actually have very
    > > little. Yes, their plans include massive areas, but largely that is via
    > > roaming partners.

    >
    > Who cares as long as it works?
    >
    >


    [posted via phonescoop.com]
  9. XFF

    XFF Guest

    hominid7@hotmail.com (Dan W.) wrote in message news:<vnok7min9b6480@corp.supernews.com>...

    > The problem with Verizons coverage though, is they actually have very
    > little. Yes, their plans include massive areas, but largely that is via
    > roaming partners. If you look at their "advanced services" map you get
    > a better idea of what kind of native verizon coverage you can expect.
    > In the far NE, in cali, and in Colorado, Verizon might be the coverage
    > king, but here in the south it's pretty sparse with the exception of the
    > greater houston area.


    What are you talking about? If you want to compare native cellular
    coverage, VZW has 82 of the top 100 markets, Cingular has 50, AT&TWS
    has 33, and ALLTEL has 28. Not sure what you mean by "the south", but
    VZW has extended native cellular coverage in TN/SC/GA/AL. In TX/LA/FL
    it's mostly PCS, but still quite usable, considerable the extensive
    roaming agreements that are in place.

    > In addition if you look at their spectrum situation, Verizon is at the
    > bottom of the list.


    Can you substantiate that a little bit please? What metrics have you
    used to come to that conclusion?
  10. adam

    adam Guest

    I'm sure they did... any company will "consider" what their competition is
    doing...They've decided not to implement it at this point.

    Adam


    "susan" <susanl@penn.com> wrote in message
    news:Vkteb.10940$NX3.10901@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net...
    > Any indication that Verizon has ever considered Rollover minutes as a

    sales
    > angle?
    > Susan
    >
    >
  11. About Dakota <aboutdakota@REMOVEMEhotmail.com> wrote in article
    <3F7AF399.3040809@REMOVEMEhotmail.com>:

    > Again, if there is a patent on the idea, that means royalties to
    > Cingular from Verizon of VZW chose to offer such an idea. If there is
    > no patent, it means that Verizon is too cheap to offer that to its
    > customers.
    >
    > AD
    >


    How the hell do you figure Verizon is 'too cheap' to offer something
    pointless like Rollover Minutes?

    Why bother restructuring the whole system to accomodate something like
    that? Verizon's Worry Free Guarantee that you can change your rate plan
    at anytime is enough for most people. And you do know their are
    restrictions to Rollover plans?

    If Verizon is too cheap to offer Rollover in your opinion, than In my
    opinion Cingular is too cheap to offer a quality cellular network.

    [posted via phonescoop.com]
  12. About Dakota <aboutdakota@REMOVEMEhotmail.com> wrote in article
    <3F7AF47F.7010903@REMOVEMEhotmail.com>:

    >
    >
    > I have had a Cingular phone since February. My calling habits run on a
    > yearly basis. I talk less during the day in the winter, and much more
    > so in the summer. It happens every year. That's another reason
    > Cingular more suits me than Verizon. I may only use 50 or 100 day
    > minutes during the month in winter, but in summer, I am free to use all
    > those extra minutes with no overage charges. Again, in winter, I talk
    > mostly on weekends.
    >
    > AD
    >



    Don't you know you can reduce your plan when your usage goes down?

    But instead you chose to reduce your calling area by a huge margin and
    overpay for the entire year using the ever popular "rollover" concept.



    [posted via phonescoop.com]
  13. And you assume that anyother company gives you a larger data accessable
    network? Verizon's Express Network is superior to many other companies
    entire networks.

    hominid7@hotmail.com (Dan W.) wrote in article
    <vnp776b9itl5e2@corp.supernews.com>:
    > I care because i want data when i travel.
    >
    > --
    > Dan W.
    > North Texas
    > hominid7 "AT" hotmail "DOT" com
    >
    >
    >
    > "Booger" <nospam@please.com> wrote in article
    > <ab9129715f9bf66cea4f5240233eaea9@news.meganetnews.com>:
    > >
    > > "Dan W." <hominid7@hotmail.com> wrote in message
    > > news:vnok7min9b6480@corp.supernews.com...
    > > > The problem with Verizons coverage though, is they actually have very
    > > > little. Yes, their plans include massive areas, but largely that is via
    > > > roaming partners.

    > >
    > > Who cares as long as it works?
    > >
    > >

    >
    > [posted via phonescoop.com]


    [posted via phonescoop.com]
  14. About Dakota

    About Dakota Guest

    > Don't you know you can reduce your plan when your usage goes down?

    It's possible, but it's a hassle to change calling plans frequently.

    > But instead you chose to reduce your calling area by a huge margin and
    > overpay for the entire year using the ever popular "rollover" concept.


    Here's my home coverage area:

    http://onlinestore.cingular.com/web...l/Maps/GulfStates/nation_GAIT_map_6_30_03.htm

    Here's the Verizon America's Choice coverage area:

    http://www.verizonwireless.com/images/maps/americas_choice/americas_choice.gif

    Wow, I guess I did *reduce* my calling area (especially while traveling
    in Montana). There's more to Cingular than "Rollover". I'm not saying
    that Verizon is bad because they don't have rollover. I'm just saying
    it suits *my* life better to have rollover. Plus, in the odd month I
    would go over in winter, I wouldn't have to worry about changing plans
    mid-month or paying huge overage. It's also extra cushioning for
    delayed free roaming minutes, that may be billed in a later month than
    were made (usually the following month).

    IMO, Cingular's national plans are unbeatable because night and weekend
    minutes apply wherever anytime minutes apply.

    Oh, national single rate, $55.00 would get me 400 anytime minutes with
    **NO NIGHT/WEEKEND** minutes. With my Cingular national plan, for
    $55.00 I get 500 anytime minutes with 5000 night and weekend minutes
    (that follow anytime minutes).

    Only a year ago, I only had a choice between 2 Verizon plans:
    60 anytime minutes for 24.99 or 120 anytime minutes for 44.99. No night
    minutes, no weekend minutes, long distance extra, plus a phone number
    from over 70 miles away. Only when Verizon lost its monopoly in that
    area did it catch up with the calling plans of the rest of the nation.

    Now, I admit that Verizon does have better service in some areas than
    does Cingular. I'm just saying that Verizon is *not* the best choice
    for *me*.

    AD
  15. Todd Allcock

    Todd Allcock Guest

    hominid7@hotmail.com (Dan W.) wrote in message news:<vnp776b9itl5e2@corp.supernews.com>...
    > I care because i want data when i travel.


    And Cingular's the answer? ;-)

    When I was a (happy) Cingular TDMA customer, I lost
    data capability whenever I left native Cingular areas.
    (AT&T never offered CSD.) Perhaps it's better with GSM,
    but that's what T-Mo is for...
  16. Dan W.

    Dan W. Guest

    In the south, where i live, AT&T, Sprint, and Cingular all offer much
    larger data coverage areas than do verizon. I'm not knocking verizon,
    they are great where they have coverage, but they have no coverage in
    oklahoma, and limited coverage in North Texas and Northern Louisiana.

    --
    Dan W.
    North Texas
    hominid7 "AT" hotmail "DOT" com



    isocom79@hotmail.com (David Domanski) wrote in article
    <vnpokrbmrsp4b9@corp.supernews.com>:
    > And you assume that anyother company gives you a larger data accessable
    > network? Verizon's Express Network is superior to many other companies
    > entire networks.
    >
    > hominid7@hotmail.com (Dan W.) wrote in article
    > <vnp776b9itl5e2@corp.supernews.com>:
    > > I care because i want data when i travel.
    > >
    > > --
    > > Dan W.
    > > North Texas
    > > hominid7 "AT" hotmail "DOT" com
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > > "Booger" <nospam@please.com> wrote in article
    > > <ab9129715f9bf66cea4f5240233eaea9@news.meganetnews.com>:
    > > >
    > > > "Dan W." <hominid7@hotmail.com> wrote in message
    > > > news:vnok7min9b6480@corp.supernews.com...
    > > > > The problem with Verizons coverage though, is they actually have very
    > > > > little. Yes, their plans include massive areas, but largely that is via
    > > > > roaming partners.
    > > >
    > > > Who cares as long as it works?
    > > >
    > > >

    > >
    > > [posted via phonescoop.com]

    >
    > [posted via phonescoop.com]


    [posted via phonescoop.com]
  17. Dan W. <hominid7@hotmail.com> wrote:
    > DOES have excellent coverage, as per my origional statment, in certian
    > areas. HOWEVER, in the areas *I* live, work and play, largely the
    > Texas, Oklahoma, Arkansas, Louisiana area, Verizons coverage is greatly
    > lacking behind that of AT&T and Cingular.


    Verizon has coverage in AR and OK?

    That's news to me. :)

    > In addition, if we look at "Spectrum availability" and "Coverage" they
    > are often very very different. AT&T, Sprint, Nextel, and T-MOB are all
    > in good shape, with Verizon and Cingular lacking the most. Granted,
    > Verizon has made up for this shortcoming with massive roaming
    > agreements, and for nationwide travelers, this is great, but it still
    > does not erase the fact that if i drive from Dallas to Oklahoma city
    > with a verizon phone, i can't check email or get voicemail notification.
    > If i make the same drive with a wireless phone from Sprint, AT&T,
    > T-Mobile, Cingular, or Nextel, i can have data, voicemail notification,
    > the works...!
    >
    >
    >
    > xff@austin.rr.com (XFF) wrote in article
    > <298d9cbf.0310021709.698bae85@posting.google.com>:
    >> hominid7@hotmail.com (Dan W.) wrote in message news:<vnok7min9b6480@corp.supernews.com>...
    >>
    >> > The problem with Verizons coverage though, is they actually have very
    >> > little. Yes, their plans include massive areas, but largely that is via
    >> > roaming partners. If you look at their "advanced services" map you get
    >> > a better idea of what kind of native verizon coverage you can expect.
    >> > In the far NE, in cali, and in Colorado, Verizon might be the coverage
    >> > king, but here in the south it's pretty sparse with the exception of the
    >> > greater houston area.

    >>

    >
    >> What are you talking about? If you want to compare native cellular
    >> coverage, VZW has 82 of the top 100 markets, Cingular has 50, AT&TWS
    >> has 33, and ALLTEL has 28. Not sure what you mean by "the south", but
    >> VZW has extended native cellular coverage in TN/SC/GA/AL. In TX/LA/FL
    >> it's mostly PCS, but still quite usable, considerable the extensive
    >> roaming agreements that are in place.
    >>
    >> > In addition if you look at their spectrum situation, Verizon is at the
    >> > bottom of the list.

    >>
    >> Can you substantiate that a little bit please? What metrics have you
    >> used to come to that conclusion?

    >
    > [posted via phonescoop.com]


    --
    JustThe.net Internet & Multimedia Services
    22674 Motnocab Road * Apple Valley, CA 92307-1950
    Steve Sobol, Proprietor
    888.480.4NET (4638) * 248.724.4NET * sjsobol@JustThe.net
  18. Dan W.

    Dan W. Guest

    If you wanna call it that. Just tiny blips on the map. Creeping north
    from texas in ok and west from TN into AR.

    --
    Dan W.
    North Texas
    hominid7 "AT" hotmail "DOT" com



    Steven J Sobol <sjsobol@JustThe.net> wrote in article
    <kiWdnaTU86uKAeCiU-KYuQ@lmi.net>:
    >
    > Verizon has coverage in AR and OK?
    >
    > That's news to me. :)
    >



    [posted via phonescoop.com]
  19. Its funny that you say VZW has the least coverage. Yes a greeat part is
    covered by roaming partners, which is called the extended ntwk, but you
    are not chrged on that network. We let you "roam" on this for free. Try
    looking at Tmobile, Sprint, Us-cellular, Cricket, and other carriers.
    Their coverage is nill. Why else would VZW say "the largest, most
    advanced and most reliable network" We even stood up against the
    hurricane...without a major loss of cell towers..like all the others do.
    do youor homework.

    Steven J Sobol <sjsobol@JustThe.net> wrote in article
    <kiWdnaTU86uKAeCiU-KYuQ@lmi.net>:
    > Dan W. <hominid7@hotmail.com> wrote:
    > > DOES have excellent coverage, as per my origional statment, in certian
    > > areas. HOWEVER, in the areas *I* live, work and play, largely the
    > > Texas, Oklahoma, Arkansas, Louisiana area, Verizons coverage is greatly
    > > lacking behind that of AT&T and Cingular.

    >
    > Verizon has coverage in AR and OK?
    >
    > That's news to me. :)
    >
    > > In addition, if we look at "Spectrum availability" and "Coverage" they
    > > are often very very different. AT&T, Sprint, Nextel, and T-MOB are all
    > > in good shape, with Verizon and Cingular lacking the most. Granted,
    > > Verizon has made up for this shortcoming with massive roaming
    > > agreements, and for nationwide travelers, this is great, but it still
    > > does not erase the fact that if i drive from Dallas to Oklahoma city
    > > with a verizon phone, i can't check email or get voicemail notification.
    > > If i make the same drive with a wireless phone from Sprint, AT&T,
    > > T-Mobile, Cingular, or Nextel, i can have data, voicemail notification,
    > > the works...!
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > > xff@austin.rr.com (XFF) wrote in article
    > > <298d9cbf.0310021709.698bae85@posting.google.com>:
    > >> hominid7@hotmail.com (Dan W.) wrote in message news:<vnok7min9b6480@corp.supernews.com>...
    > >>
    > >> > The problem with Verizons coverage though, is they actually have very
    > >> > little. Yes, their plans include massive areas, but largely that is via
    > >> > roaming partners. If you look at their "advanced services" map you get
    > >> > a better idea of what kind of native verizon coverage you can expect.
    > >> > In the far NE, in cali, and in Colorado, Verizon might be the coverage
    > >> > king, but here in the south it's pretty sparse with the exception of the
    > >> > greater houston area.
    > >>

    > >
    > >> What are you talking about? If you want to compare native cellular
    > >> coverage, VZW has 82 of the top 100 markets, Cingular has 50, AT&TWS
    > >> has 33, and ALLTEL has 28. Not sure what you mean by "the south", but
    > >> VZW has extended native cellular coverage in TN/SC/GA/AL. In TX/LA/FL
    > >> it's mostly PCS, but still quite usable, considerable the extensive
    > >> roaming agreements that are in place.
    > >>
    > >> > In addition if you look at their spectrum situation, Verizon is at the
    > >> > bottom of the list.
    > >>
    > >> Can you substantiate that a little bit please? What metrics have you
    > >> used to come to that conclusion?

    > >
    > > [posted via phonescoop.com]

    >
    > --
    > JustThe.net Internet & Multimedia Services
    > 22674 Motnocab Road * Apple Valley, CA 92307-1950
    > Steve Sobol, Proprietor
    > 888.480.4NET (4638) * 248.724.4NET * sjsobol@JustThe.net


    [posted via phonescoop.com]
  20. Dan W. <hominid7@hotmail.com> wrote:
    > If you wanna call it that. Just tiny blips on the map. Creeping north
    > from texas in ok and west from TN into AR.


    Yeah. Driving on I-40 a few months ago, I found *no* native coverage between
    Memphis and... well, there's no VZW coverage on I-40 in Texas either, but
    there's supposed to be decent coverage in the larger Texas cities.

    That's one of the parts of the countries where VZW, to put it mildly, doesn't
    dominate. ;)

    --
    JustThe.net Internet & Multimedia Services
    22674 Motnocab Road * Apple Valley, CA 92307-1950
    Steve Sobol, Proprietor
    888.480.4NET (4638) * 248.724.4NET * sjsobol@JustThe.net

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