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Verizon Wireless billing trick, scam $40 "mistake"

Discussion in 'alt.cellular.verizon' started by Quick, Jul 1, 2004.

  1. Roger Binns

    Roger Binns Guest

    Proconsul wrote:
    > It isn't I who has missed the point - Verizon does what they do because they
    > find it the way they want to do it.....


    An answer of "they do it that way because they do it that way" is not an answer
    just as saying "the earth goes around the sun because the earth goes around
    the sun" is not an answer, even if it is convenient for the earth to do so,
    and obvious that it does so.

    > It is, indeed, nothing more than "sour grapes", i.e., they didn't do it your
    > way so it's obviously wrong or some devious plot......:)


    Have you actually read my posts? I have not and am not complaining about
    it. I am merely asking why they do it that way. You are welcome to say
    that you don't know.

    > The reason is obvious - they developed a system that works for them the way
    > they want it to work and into which they have to weave 39 million accounts.
    > No rocket science involved here....


    Well, we already know that it is different practise from every other
    utility and service provider out there, and that they have to explain
    to *every* new customer how prorating works, and they have to deal
    with a proportion of those customer who didn't understand or didn't
    pay attention. Those things cost good will and they cost CSR time
    for people calling in and salespeople doing the explaining. It is
    evident to us that there are costs to their use of random dates.

    > It's YOUR responsibility to pay attention, read and understand.....it's
    > THEIR responsibility to explain. In my experience, they do explain. It's my
    > observation that many people neither listen nor read. The criticism of
    > Verizon is, IMO, simply not justified....


    That is not the point as I keep saying.

    > Ah, but you DO expose yourself to proration


    I am not asking about how proration works. Proration is *not* the
    issue. The issue is *why* the billing date is a random date and
    not based on the day you signed up. Because they pick a random
    day it means that every single customer has to deal with proration
    on their very first bill (as does the billing system), which means
    that the sales people have to explain, the CSRs have to deal with
    the people who didn't understand or pay attention etc

    If you change your plan later on, dealing with proration is fine,
    and I expect many people do what I did which is get the change to
    happen on the billing date therefore there were no proration issues.

    > A disntinction without a difference - just because YOU think it's the "right
    > way" doesn't make it so. Verizon's system is their system and since it's
    > their company, they get to make the rules....! I don't want to argue at
    > all - I merely contend that the carping about Verizon's methods in re
    > billing is unjustified....!


    What is so different about VZW that they can't do it the same way
    as every single other similar business out there? And as a customer,
    guess who ultimately pays for all those calls from people who didn't
    understand or didn't pay attention? I would rather they spend my
    payments on improved service, better phones, etc than on customer
    support that wouldn't be necessary if billing dates hadn't been
    made so complicated in the first place. You may understand just
    fine, but that doesn't mean all the other new customers do.

    And while I agree with you about the competency of the VZW CSRs,
    I have found that I have to call in too often because of billing
    errors and that it takes (IMHO) far to much time on the phone
    to resolve. Again that is customer revenue being spent on
    things that aren't of any real benefit to the customer or
    to VZW. (Feel free to call this paragraph sour grapes).

    Roger
     



    › See More: Verizon Wireless billing trick, scam $40 "mistake"
  2. Proconsul

    Proconsul Guest

    The discussion is becoming circular - but I thank you for remaining civil
    and sticking to the issue(s).....:)

    I have read your posts. This is what I find and what I maintain:

    1. The contention that Verizon should use "some other system" is merely an
    opinion. It's a fair opinion, but that's all it is. My contention remains
    that they do it the way they do for reasons of their own - neither you nor I
    "needs to know" WHY....! If you must know, then correspond with their
    corporate entities who will surely provide a civil answer that will, no
    doubt, be just as unsatisfactory as what we all already know.....those who
    don't "like it" will continue to not "like it". As far as I'm concerned -
    permission granted....don't "like it". Those who rant over such a thing are
    simply displaying an "attitude" and border on being deranged.

    2. The notion that Verizon - or any other business entity - assigns billing
    dates arbitrarily and in a manner unfair to customers is, again, simply an
    opinion. MANY businesses and entities use their own "rules of thumb" to do
    similar things. A good example is Social Security - the date you get your
    check is based on the letter of the alphabet your last name starts with. A
    way to spread things out over the month. Verizon uses their own "rule of
    thumb" to spread things out over the month.

    3. In point of fact, Verizon is under no obligation whatsoever to make sure
    that you, I or anyone else is spoon-fed information concerning what the
    billing dates are and how/why they are assigned. Their obligation is to
    merely tell you what it is and they do that at the top of every bill they
    send out and in the body of the contract that each of us signs. It's up to
    us to read, understand and act accordingly. Nothing anyone says will change
    this simple a priori truth.....

    4. This issue is, IMO, a real yawner, i.e., a trifle of the first order.
    There must be more important things to get "bent out of shape" over.....

    5. I find Verizon's system perfectly reasonable, accurate, fair and easy to
    understand - and so do the overwhelming majority of the 39 million customers
    who get said bill every month....

    Have a nice day!

    PC

    "Roger Binns" <rogerb@rogerbinns.com> wrote in message
    news:n0okr1-naf.ln1@home.rogerbinns.com...
    | Proconsul wrote:
    | > It isn't I who has missed the point - Verizon does what they do because
    they
    | > find it the way they want to do it.....
    |
    | An answer of "they do it that way because they do it that way" is not an
    answer
    | just as saying "the earth goes around the sun because the earth goes
    around
    | the sun" is not an answer, even if it is convenient for the earth to do
    so,
    | and obvious that it does so.
    |
    | > It is, indeed, nothing more than "sour grapes", i.e., they didn't do it
    your
    | > way so it's obviously wrong or some devious plot......:)
    |
    | Have you actually read my posts? I have not and am not complaining about
    | it. I am merely asking why they do it that way. You are welcome to say
    | that you don't know.
    |
    | > The reason is obvious - they developed a system that works for them the
    way
    | > they want it to work and into which they have to weave 39 million
    accounts.
    | > No rocket science involved here....
    |
    | Well, we already know that it is different practise from every other
    | utility and service provider out there, and that they have to explain
    | to *every* new customer how prorating works, and they have to deal
    | with a proportion of those customer who didn't understand or didn't
    | pay attention. Those things cost good will and they cost CSR time
    | for people calling in and salespeople doing the explaining. It is
    | evident to us that there are costs to their use of random dates.
    |
    | > It's YOUR responsibility to pay attention, read and understand.....it's
    | > THEIR responsibility to explain. In my experience, they do explain. It's
    my
    | > observation that many people neither listen nor read. The criticism of
    | > Verizon is, IMO, simply not justified....
    |
    | That is not the point as I keep saying.
    |
    | > Ah, but you DO expose yourself to proration
    |
    | I am not asking about how proration works. Proration is *not* the
    | issue. The issue is *why* the billing date is a random date and
    | not based on the day you signed up. Because they pick a random
    | day it means that every single customer has to deal with proration
    | on their very first bill (as does the billing system), which means
    | that the sales people have to explain, the CSRs have to deal with
    | the people who didn't understand or pay attention etc
    |
    | If you change your plan later on, dealing with proration is fine,
    | and I expect many people do what I did which is get the change to
    | happen on the billing date therefore there were no proration issues.
    |
    | > A disntinction without a difference - just because YOU think it's the
    "right
    | > way" doesn't make it so. Verizon's system is their system and since it's
    | > their company, they get to make the rules....! I don't want to argue at
    | > all - I merely contend that the carping about Verizon's methods in re
    | > billing is unjustified....!
    |
    | What is so different about VZW that they can't do it the same way
    | as every single other similar business out there? And as a customer,
    | guess who ultimately pays for all those calls from people who didn't
    | understand or didn't pay attention? I would rather they spend my
    | payments on improved service, better phones, etc than on customer
    | support that wouldn't be necessary if billing dates hadn't been
    | made so complicated in the first place. You may understand just
    | fine, but that doesn't mean all the other new customers do.
    |
    | And while I agree with you about the competency of the VZW CSRs,
    | I have found that I have to call in too often because of billing
    | errors and that it takes (IMHO) far to much time on the phone
    | to resolve. Again that is customer revenue being spent on
    | things that aren't of any real benefit to the customer or
    | to VZW. (Feel free to call this paragraph sour grapes).
    |
    | Roger
    |
    |
     
  3. Proconsul

    Proconsul Guest

    The discussion is becoming circular - but I thank you for remaining civil
    and sticking to the issue(s).....:)

    I have read your posts. This is what I find and what I maintain:

    1. The contention that Verizon should use "some other system" is merely an
    opinion. It's a fair opinion, but that's all it is. My contention remains
    that they do it the way they do for reasons of their own - neither you nor I
    "needs to know" WHY....! If you must know, then correspond with their
    corporate entities who will surely provide a civil answer that will, no
    doubt, be just as unsatisfactory as what we all already know.....those who
    don't "like it" will continue to not "like it". As far as I'm concerned -
    permission granted....don't "like it". Those who rant over such a thing are
    simply displaying an "attitude" and border on being deranged.

    2. The notion that Verizon - or any other business entity - assigns billing
    dates arbitrarily and in a manner unfair to customers is, again, simply an
    opinion. MANY businesses and entities use their own "rules of thumb" to do
    similar things. A good example is Social Security - the date you get your
    check is based on the letter of the alphabet your last name starts with. A
    way to spread things out over the month. Verizon uses their own "rule of
    thumb" to spread things out over the month.

    3. In point of fact, Verizon is under no obligation whatsoever to make sure
    that you, I or anyone else is spoon-fed information concerning what the
    billing dates are and how/why they are assigned. Their obligation is to
    merely tell you what it is and they do that at the top of every bill they
    send out and in the body of the contract that each of us signs. It's up to
    us to read, understand and act accordingly. Nothing anyone says will change
    this simple a priori truth.....

    4. This issue is, IMO, a real yawner, i.e., a trifle of the first order.
    There must be more important things to get "bent out of shape" over.....

    5. I find Verizon's system perfectly reasonable, accurate, fair and easy to
    understand - and so do the overwhelming majority of the 39 million customers
    who get said bill every month....

    Have a nice day!

    PC

    "Roger Binns" <rogerb@rogerbinns.com> wrote in message
    news:n0okr1-naf.ln1@home.rogerbinns.com...
    | Proconsul wrote:
    | > It isn't I who has missed the point - Verizon does what they do because
    they
    | > find it the way they want to do it.....
    |
    | An answer of "they do it that way because they do it that way" is not an
    answer
    | just as saying "the earth goes around the sun because the earth goes
    around
    | the sun" is not an answer, even if it is convenient for the earth to do
    so,
    | and obvious that it does so.
    |
    | > It is, indeed, nothing more than "sour grapes", i.e., they didn't do it
    your
    | > way so it's obviously wrong or some devious plot......:)
    |
    | Have you actually read my posts? I have not and am not complaining about
    | it. I am merely asking why they do it that way. You are welcome to say
    | that you don't know.
    |
    | > The reason is obvious - they developed a system that works for them the
    way
    | > they want it to work and into which they have to weave 39 million
    accounts.
    | > No rocket science involved here....
    |
    | Well, we already know that it is different practise from every other
    | utility and service provider out there, and that they have to explain
    | to *every* new customer how prorating works, and they have to deal
    | with a proportion of those customer who didn't understand or didn't
    | pay attention. Those things cost good will and they cost CSR time
    | for people calling in and salespeople doing the explaining. It is
    | evident to us that there are costs to their use of random dates.
    |
    | > It's YOUR responsibility to pay attention, read and understand.....it's
    | > THEIR responsibility to explain. In my experience, they do explain. It's
    my
    | > observation that many people neither listen nor read. The criticism of
    | > Verizon is, IMO, simply not justified....
    |
    | That is not the point as I keep saying.
    |
    | > Ah, but you DO expose yourself to proration
    |
    | I am not asking about how proration works. Proration is *not* the
    | issue. The issue is *why* the billing date is a random date and
    | not based on the day you signed up. Because they pick a random
    | day it means that every single customer has to deal with proration
    | on their very first bill (as does the billing system), which means
    | that the sales people have to explain, the CSRs have to deal with
    | the people who didn't understand or pay attention etc
    |
    | If you change your plan later on, dealing with proration is fine,
    | and I expect many people do what I did which is get the change to
    | happen on the billing date therefore there were no proration issues.
    |
    | > A disntinction without a difference - just because YOU think it's the
    "right
    | > way" doesn't make it so. Verizon's system is their system and since it's
    | > their company, they get to make the rules....! I don't want to argue at
    | > all - I merely contend that the carping about Verizon's methods in re
    | > billing is unjustified....!
    |
    | What is so different about VZW that they can't do it the same way
    | as every single other similar business out there? And as a customer,
    | guess who ultimately pays for all those calls from people who didn't
    | understand or didn't pay attention? I would rather they spend my
    | payments on improved service, better phones, etc than on customer
    | support that wouldn't be necessary if billing dates hadn't been
    | made so complicated in the first place. You may understand just
    | fine, but that doesn't mean all the other new customers do.
    |
    | And while I agree with you about the competency of the VZW CSRs,
    | I have found that I have to call in too often because of billing
    | errors and that it takes (IMHO) far to much time on the phone
    | to resolve. Again that is customer revenue being spent on
    | things that aren't of any real benefit to the customer or
    | to VZW. (Feel free to call this paragraph sour grapes).
    |
    | Roger
    |
    |
     
  4. Proconsul

    Proconsul Guest

    The discussion is becoming circular - but I thank you for remaining civil
    and sticking to the issue(s).....:)

    I have read your posts. This is what I find and what I maintain:

    1. The contention that Verizon should use "some other system" is merely an
    opinion. It's a fair opinion, but that's all it is. My contention remains
    that they do it the way they do for reasons of their own - neither you nor I
    "needs to know" WHY....! If you must know, then correspond with their
    corporate entities who will surely provide a civil answer that will, no
    doubt, be just as unsatisfactory as what we all already know.....those who
    don't "like it" will continue to not "like it". As far as I'm concerned -
    permission granted....don't "like it". Those who rant over such a thing are
    simply displaying an "attitude" and border on being deranged.

    2. The notion that Verizon - or any other business entity - assigns billing
    dates arbitrarily and in a manner unfair to customers is, again, simply an
    opinion. MANY businesses and entities use their own "rules of thumb" to do
    similar things. A good example is Social Security - the date you get your
    check is based on the letter of the alphabet your last name starts with. A
    way to spread things out over the month. Verizon uses their own "rule of
    thumb" to spread things out over the month.

    3. In point of fact, Verizon is under no obligation whatsoever to make sure
    that you, I or anyone else is spoon-fed information concerning what the
    billing dates are and how/why they are assigned. Their obligation is to
    merely tell you what it is and they do that at the top of every bill they
    send out and in the body of the contract that each of us signs. It's up to
    us to read, understand and act accordingly. Nothing anyone says will change
    this simple a priori truth.....

    4. This issue is, IMO, a real yawner, i.e., a trifle of the first order.
    There must be more important things to get "bent out of shape" over.....

    5. I find Verizon's system perfectly reasonable, accurate, fair and easy to
    understand - and so do the overwhelming majority of the 39 million customers
    who get said bill every month....

    Have a nice day!

    PC

    "Roger Binns" <rogerb@rogerbinns.com> wrote in message
    news:n0okr1-naf.ln1@home.rogerbinns.com...
    | Proconsul wrote:
    | > It isn't I who has missed the point - Verizon does what they do because
    they
    | > find it the way they want to do it.....
    |
    | An answer of "they do it that way because they do it that way" is not an
    answer
    | just as saying "the earth goes around the sun because the earth goes
    around
    | the sun" is not an answer, even if it is convenient for the earth to do
    so,
    | and obvious that it does so.
    |
    | > It is, indeed, nothing more than "sour grapes", i.e., they didn't do it
    your
    | > way so it's obviously wrong or some devious plot......:)
    |
    | Have you actually read my posts? I have not and am not complaining about
    | it. I am merely asking why they do it that way. You are welcome to say
    | that you don't know.
    |
    | > The reason is obvious - they developed a system that works for them the
    way
    | > they want it to work and into which they have to weave 39 million
    accounts.
    | > No rocket science involved here....
    |
    | Well, we already know that it is different practise from every other
    | utility and service provider out there, and that they have to explain
    | to *every* new customer how prorating works, and they have to deal
    | with a proportion of those customer who didn't understand or didn't
    | pay attention. Those things cost good will and they cost CSR time
    | for people calling in and salespeople doing the explaining. It is
    | evident to us that there are costs to their use of random dates.
    |
    | > It's YOUR responsibility to pay attention, read and understand.....it's
    | > THEIR responsibility to explain. In my experience, they do explain. It's
    my
    | > observation that many people neither listen nor read. The criticism of
    | > Verizon is, IMO, simply not justified....
    |
    | That is not the point as I keep saying.
    |
    | > Ah, but you DO expose yourself to proration
    |
    | I am not asking about how proration works. Proration is *not* the
    | issue. The issue is *why* the billing date is a random date and
    | not based on the day you signed up. Because they pick a random
    | day it means that every single customer has to deal with proration
    | on their very first bill (as does the billing system), which means
    | that the sales people have to explain, the CSRs have to deal with
    | the people who didn't understand or pay attention etc
    |
    | If you change your plan later on, dealing with proration is fine,
    | and I expect many people do what I did which is get the change to
    | happen on the billing date therefore there were no proration issues.
    |
    | > A disntinction without a difference - just because YOU think it's the
    "right
    | > way" doesn't make it so. Verizon's system is their system and since it's
    | > their company, they get to make the rules....! I don't want to argue at
    | > all - I merely contend that the carping about Verizon's methods in re
    | > billing is unjustified....!
    |
    | What is so different about VZW that they can't do it the same way
    | as every single other similar business out there? And as a customer,
    | guess who ultimately pays for all those calls from people who didn't
    | understand or didn't pay attention? I would rather they spend my
    | payments on improved service, better phones, etc than on customer
    | support that wouldn't be necessary if billing dates hadn't been
    | made so complicated in the first place. You may understand just
    | fine, but that doesn't mean all the other new customers do.
    |
    | And while I agree with you about the competency of the VZW CSRs,
    | I have found that I have to call in too often because of billing
    | errors and that it takes (IMHO) far to much time on the phone
    | to resolve. Again that is customer revenue being spent on
    | things that aren't of any real benefit to the customer or
    | to VZW. (Feel free to call this paragraph sour grapes).
    |
    | Roger
    |
    |
     
  5. Proconsul

    Proconsul Guest

    The discussion is becoming circular - but I thank you for remaining civil
    and sticking to the issue(s).....:)

    I have read your posts. This is what I find and what I maintain:

    1. The contention that Verizon should use "some other system" is merely an
    opinion. It's a fair opinion, but that's all it is. My contention remains
    that they do it the way they do for reasons of their own - neither you nor I
    "needs to know" WHY....! If you must know, then correspond with their
    corporate entities who will surely provide a civil answer that will, no
    doubt, be just as unsatisfactory as what we all already know.....those who
    don't "like it" will continue to not "like it". As far as I'm concerned -
    permission granted....don't "like it". Those who rant over such a thing are
    simply displaying an "attitude" and border on being deranged.

    2. The notion that Verizon - or any other business entity - assigns billing
    dates arbitrarily and in a manner unfair to customers is, again, simply an
    opinion. MANY businesses and entities use their own "rules of thumb" to do
    similar things. A good example is Social Security - the date you get your
    check is based on the letter of the alphabet your last name starts with. A
    way to spread things out over the month. Verizon uses their own "rule of
    thumb" to spread things out over the month.

    3. In point of fact, Verizon is under no obligation whatsoever to make sure
    that you, I or anyone else is spoon-fed information concerning what the
    billing dates are and how/why they are assigned. Their obligation is to
    merely tell you what it is and they do that at the top of every bill they
    send out and in the body of the contract that each of us signs. It's up to
    us to read, understand and act accordingly. Nothing anyone says will change
    this simple a priori truth.....

    4. This issue is, IMO, a real yawner, i.e., a trifle of the first order.
    There must be more important things to get "bent out of shape" over.....

    5. I find Verizon's system perfectly reasonable, accurate, fair and easy to
    understand - and so do the overwhelming majority of the 39 million customers
    who get said bill every month....

    Have a nice day!

    PC

    "Roger Binns" <rogerb@rogerbinns.com> wrote in message
    news:n0okr1-naf.ln1@home.rogerbinns.com...
    | Proconsul wrote:
    | > It isn't I who has missed the point - Verizon does what they do because
    they
    | > find it the way they want to do it.....
    |
    | An answer of "they do it that way because they do it that way" is not an
    answer
    | just as saying "the earth goes around the sun because the earth goes
    around
    | the sun" is not an answer, even if it is convenient for the earth to do
    so,
    | and obvious that it does so.
    |
    | > It is, indeed, nothing more than "sour grapes", i.e., they didn't do it
    your
    | > way so it's obviously wrong or some devious plot......:)
    |
    | Have you actually read my posts? I have not and am not complaining about
    | it. I am merely asking why they do it that way. You are welcome to say
    | that you don't know.
    |
    | > The reason is obvious - they developed a system that works for them the
    way
    | > they want it to work and into which they have to weave 39 million
    accounts.
    | > No rocket science involved here....
    |
    | Well, we already know that it is different practise from every other
    | utility and service provider out there, and that they have to explain
    | to *every* new customer how prorating works, and they have to deal
    | with a proportion of those customer who didn't understand or didn't
    | pay attention. Those things cost good will and they cost CSR time
    | for people calling in and salespeople doing the explaining. It is
    | evident to us that there are costs to their use of random dates.
    |
    | > It's YOUR responsibility to pay attention, read and understand.....it's
    | > THEIR responsibility to explain. In my experience, they do explain. It's
    my
    | > observation that many people neither listen nor read. The criticism of
    | > Verizon is, IMO, simply not justified....
    |
    | That is not the point as I keep saying.
    |
    | > Ah, but you DO expose yourself to proration
    |
    | I am not asking about how proration works. Proration is *not* the
    | issue. The issue is *why* the billing date is a random date and
    | not based on the day you signed up. Because they pick a random
    | day it means that every single customer has to deal with proration
    | on their very first bill (as does the billing system), which means
    | that the sales people have to explain, the CSRs have to deal with
    | the people who didn't understand or pay attention etc
    |
    | If you change your plan later on, dealing with proration is fine,
    | and I expect many people do what I did which is get the change to
    | happen on the billing date therefore there were no proration issues.
    |
    | > A disntinction without a difference - just because YOU think it's the
    "right
    | > way" doesn't make it so. Verizon's system is their system and since it's
    | > their company, they get to make the rules....! I don't want to argue at
    | > all - I merely contend that the carping about Verizon's methods in re
    | > billing is unjustified....!
    |
    | What is so different about VZW that they can't do it the same way
    | as every single other similar business out there? And as a customer,
    | guess who ultimately pays for all those calls from people who didn't
    | understand or didn't pay attention? I would rather they spend my
    | payments on improved service, better phones, etc than on customer
    | support that wouldn't be necessary if billing dates hadn't been
    | made so complicated in the first place. You may understand just
    | fine, but that doesn't mean all the other new customers do.
    |
    | And while I agree with you about the competency of the VZW CSRs,
    | I have found that I have to call in too often because of billing
    | errors and that it takes (IMHO) far to much time on the phone
    | to resolve. Again that is customer revenue being spent on
    | things that aren't of any real benefit to the customer or
    | to VZW. (Feel free to call this paragraph sour grapes).
    |
    | Roger
    |
    |
     
  6. Proconsul

    Proconsul Guest

    The discussion is becoming circular - but I thank you for remaining civil
    and sticking to the issue(s).....:)

    I have read your posts. This is what I find and what I maintain:

    1. The contention that Verizon should use "some other system" is merely an
    opinion. It's a fair opinion, but that's all it is. My contention remains
    that they do it the way they do for reasons of their own - neither you nor I
    "needs to know" WHY....! If you must know, then correspond with their
    corporate entities who will surely provide a civil answer that will, no
    doubt, be just as unsatisfactory as what we all already know.....those who
    don't "like it" will continue to not "like it". As far as I'm concerned -
    permission granted....don't "like it". Those who rant over such a thing are
    simply displaying an "attitude" and border on being deranged.

    2. The notion that Verizon - or any other business entity - assigns billing
    dates arbitrarily and in a manner unfair to customers is, again, simply an
    opinion. MANY businesses and entities use their own "rules of thumb" to do
    similar things. A good example is Social Security - the date you get your
    check is based on the letter of the alphabet your last name starts with. A
    way to spread things out over the month. Verizon uses their own "rule of
    thumb" to spread things out over the month.

    3. In point of fact, Verizon is under no obligation whatsoever to make sure
    that you, I or anyone else is spoon-fed information concerning what the
    billing dates are and how/why they are assigned. Their obligation is to
    merely tell you what it is and they do that at the top of every bill they
    send out and in the body of the contract that each of us signs. It's up to
    us to read, understand and act accordingly. Nothing anyone says will change
    this simple a priori truth.....

    4. This issue is, IMO, a real yawner, i.e., a trifle of the first order.
    There must be more important things to get "bent out of shape" over.....

    5. I find Verizon's system perfectly reasonable, accurate, fair and easy to
    understand - and so do the overwhelming majority of the 39 million customers
    who get said bill every month....

    Have a nice day!

    PC

    "Roger Binns" <rogerb@rogerbinns.com> wrote in message
    news:n0okr1-naf.ln1@home.rogerbinns.com...
    | Proconsul wrote:
    | > It isn't I who has missed the point - Verizon does what they do because
    they
    | > find it the way they want to do it.....
    |
    | An answer of "they do it that way because they do it that way" is not an
    answer
    | just as saying "the earth goes around the sun because the earth goes
    around
    | the sun" is not an answer, even if it is convenient for the earth to do
    so,
    | and obvious that it does so.
    |
    | > It is, indeed, nothing more than "sour grapes", i.e., they didn't do it
    your
    | > way so it's obviously wrong or some devious plot......:)
    |
    | Have you actually read my posts? I have not and am not complaining about
    | it. I am merely asking why they do it that way. You are welcome to say
    | that you don't know.
    |
    | > The reason is obvious - they developed a system that works for them the
    way
    | > they want it to work and into which they have to weave 39 million
    accounts.
    | > No rocket science involved here....
    |
    | Well, we already know that it is different practise from every other
    | utility and service provider out there, and that they have to explain
    | to *every* new customer how prorating works, and they have to deal
    | with a proportion of those customer who didn't understand or didn't
    | pay attention. Those things cost good will and they cost CSR time
    | for people calling in and salespeople doing the explaining. It is
    | evident to us that there are costs to their use of random dates.
    |
    | > It's YOUR responsibility to pay attention, read and understand.....it's
    | > THEIR responsibility to explain. In my experience, they do explain. It's
    my
    | > observation that many people neither listen nor read. The criticism of
    | > Verizon is, IMO, simply not justified....
    |
    | That is not the point as I keep saying.
    |
    | > Ah, but you DO expose yourself to proration
    |
    | I am not asking about how proration works. Proration is *not* the
    | issue. The issue is *why* the billing date is a random date and
    | not based on the day you signed up. Because they pick a random
    | day it means that every single customer has to deal with proration
    | on their very first bill (as does the billing system), which means
    | that the sales people have to explain, the CSRs have to deal with
    | the people who didn't understand or pay attention etc
    |
    | If you change your plan later on, dealing with proration is fine,
    | and I expect many people do what I did which is get the change to
    | happen on the billing date therefore there were no proration issues.
    |
    | > A disntinction without a difference - just because YOU think it's the
    "right
    | > way" doesn't make it so. Verizon's system is their system and since it's
    | > their company, they get to make the rules....! I don't want to argue at
    | > all - I merely contend that the carping about Verizon's methods in re
    | > billing is unjustified....!
    |
    | What is so different about VZW that they can't do it the same way
    | as every single other similar business out there? And as a customer,
    | guess who ultimately pays for all those calls from people who didn't
    | understand or didn't pay attention? I would rather they spend my
    | payments on improved service, better phones, etc than on customer
    | support that wouldn't be necessary if billing dates hadn't been
    | made so complicated in the first place. You may understand just
    | fine, but that doesn't mean all the other new customers do.
    |
    | And while I agree with you about the competency of the VZW CSRs,
    | I have found that I have to call in too often because of billing
    | errors and that it takes (IMHO) far to much time on the phone
    | to resolve. Again that is customer revenue being spent on
    | things that aren't of any real benefit to the customer or
    | to VZW. (Feel free to call this paragraph sour grapes).
    |
    | Roger
    |
    |
     
  7. Quick

    Quick Guest

    Got to agree with Roger on this one. His first post might
    have sounded like he did not agree with the cycle date
    selection thing but everything following up was simply
    "what is the reason for doing it that way?". I think your
    argument is that their reason is their's alone and therefore
    totally irrevelant.

    1) you are right in what you say.
    2) the very first prorate is a common point of contention,
    misunderstanding, explanation ignored, etc.
    3) VZW is a huge business and the assumption is that
    there is some practical reason for the practice they have
    chosen (or not -- could be that Bob from accounting
    just abitrarily did it this way 10 years ago with out any
    thought whatsoever and it just stuck)..

    My guess is that they would not get an even distribution
    of cycle dates. There would be large concentrations
    around holidays, seasonal, etc.

    -Quick

    Proconsul wrote:
    > The discussion is becoming circular - but I thank you for remaining
    > civil and sticking to the issue(s).....:)
    >
    > I have read your posts. This is what I find and what I maintain:
    >
    > 1. The contention that Verizon should use "some other system" is
    > merely an opinion. It's a fair opinion, but that's all it is. My
    > contention remains that they do it the way they do for reasons of
    > their own - neither you nor I "needs to know" WHY....! If you must
    > know, then correspond with their corporate entities who will surely
    > provide a civil answer that will, no doubt, be just as unsatisfactory
    > as what we all already know.....those who don't "like it" will
    > continue to not "like it". As far as I'm concerned - permission
    > granted....don't "like it". Those who rant over such a thing are
    > simply displaying an "attitude" and border on being deranged.
    >
    > 2. The notion that Verizon - or any other business entity - assigns
    > billing dates arbitrarily and in a manner unfair to customers is,
    > again, simply an opinion. MANY businesses and entities use their own
    > "rules of thumb" to do similar things. A good example is Social
    > Security - the date you get your check is based on the letter of the
    > alphabet your last name starts with. A way to spread things out over
    > the month. Verizon uses their own "rule of thumb" to spread things
    > out over the month.
    >
    > 3. In point of fact, Verizon is under no obligation whatsoever to
    > make sure that you, I or anyone else is spoon-fed information
    > concerning what the billing dates are and how/why they are assigned.
    > Their obligation is to merely tell you what it is and they do that at
    > the top of every bill they send out and in the body of the contract
    > that each of us signs. It's up to us to read, understand and act
    > accordingly. Nothing anyone says will change this simple a priori
    > truth.....
    >
    > 4. This issue is, IMO, a real yawner, i.e., a trifle of the first
    > order. There must be more important things to get "bent out of shape"
    > over.....
    >
    > 5. I find Verizon's system perfectly reasonable, accurate, fair and
    > easy to understand - and so do the overwhelming majority of the 39
    > million customers who get said bill every month....
    >
    > Have a nice day!
    >
    > PC
    >
    > "Roger Binns" <rogerb@rogerbinns.com> wrote in message
    > news:n0okr1-naf.ln1@home.rogerbinns.com...
    >> Proconsul wrote:
    >>> It isn't I who has missed the point - Verizon does what they do
    >>> because they find it the way they want to do it.....

    >>
    >> An answer of "they do it that way because they do it that way" is
    >> not an answer just as saying "the earth goes around the sun because
    >> the earth goes around the sun" is not an answer, even if it is
    >> convenient for the earth to do so, and obvious that it does so.
    >>
    >>> It is, indeed, nothing more than "sour grapes", i.e., they didn't
    >>> do it your way so it's obviously wrong or some devious plot......:)

    >>
    >> Have you actually read my posts? I have not and am not complaining
    >> about it. I am merely asking why they do it that way. You are
    >> welcome to say that you don't know.
    >>
    >>> The reason is obvious - they developed a system that works for them
    >>> the way they want it to work and into which they have to weave 39
    >>> million accounts. No rocket science involved here....

    >>
    >> Well, we already know that it is different practise from every other
    >> utility and service provider out there, and that they have to explain
    >> to *every* new customer how prorating works, and they have to deal
    >> with a proportion of those customer who didn't understand or didn't
    >> pay attention. Those things cost good will and they cost CSR time
    >> for people calling in and salespeople doing the explaining. It is
    >> evident to us that there are costs to their use of random dates.
    >>
    >>> It's YOUR responsibility to pay attention, read and
    >>> understand.....it's THEIR responsibility to explain. In my
    >>> experience, they do explain. It's my observation that many people
    >>> neither listen nor read. The criticism of Verizon is, IMO, simply
    >>> not justified....

    >>
    >> That is not the point as I keep saying.
    >>
    >>> Ah, but you DO expose yourself to proration

    >>
    >> I am not asking about how proration works. Proration is *not* the
    >> issue. The issue is *why* the billing date is a random date and
    >> not based on the day you signed up. Because they pick a random
    >> day it means that every single customer has to deal with proration
    >> on their very first bill (as does the billing system), which means
    >> that the sales people have to explain, the CSRs have to deal with
    >> the people who didn't understand or pay attention etc
    >>
    >> If you change your plan later on, dealing with proration is fine,
    >> and I expect many people do what I did which is get the change to
    >> happen on the billing date therefore there were no proration issues.
    >>
    >>> A disntinction without a difference - just because YOU think it's
    >>> the "right way" doesn't make it so. Verizon's system is their
    >>> system and since it's their company, they get to make the
    >>> rules....! I don't want to argue at all - I merely contend that the
    >>> carping about Verizon's methods in re billing is unjustified....!

    >>
    >> What is so different about VZW that they can't do it the same way
    >> as every single other similar business out there? And as a customer,
    >> guess who ultimately pays for all those calls from people who didn't
    >> understand or didn't pay attention? I would rather they spend my
    >> payments on improved service, better phones, etc than on customer
    >> support that wouldn't be necessary if billing dates hadn't been
    >> made so complicated in the first place. You may understand just
    >> fine, but that doesn't mean all the other new customers do.
    >>
    >> And while I agree with you about the competency of the VZW CSRs,
    >> I have found that I have to call in too often because of billing
    >> errors and that it takes (IMHO) far to much time on the phone
    >> to resolve. Again that is customer revenue being spent on
    >> things that aren't of any real benefit to the customer or
    >> to VZW. (Feel free to call this paragraph sour grapes).
    >>
    >> Roger
     
  8. Quick

    Quick Guest

    Got to agree with Roger on this one. His first post might
    have sounded like he did not agree with the cycle date
    selection thing but everything following up was simply
    "what is the reason for doing it that way?". I think your
    argument is that their reason is their's alone and therefore
    totally irrevelant.

    1) you are right in what you say.
    2) the very first prorate is a common point of contention,
    misunderstanding, explanation ignored, etc.
    3) VZW is a huge business and the assumption is that
    there is some practical reason for the practice they have
    chosen (or not -- could be that Bob from accounting
    just abitrarily did it this way 10 years ago with out any
    thought whatsoever and it just stuck)..

    My guess is that they would not get an even distribution
    of cycle dates. There would be large concentrations
    around holidays, seasonal, etc.

    -Quick

    Proconsul wrote:
    > The discussion is becoming circular - but I thank you for remaining
    > civil and sticking to the issue(s).....:)
    >
    > I have read your posts. This is what I find and what I maintain:
    >
    > 1. The contention that Verizon should use "some other system" is
    > merely an opinion. It's a fair opinion, but that's all it is. My
    > contention remains that they do it the way they do for reasons of
    > their own - neither you nor I "needs to know" WHY....! If you must
    > know, then correspond with their corporate entities who will surely
    > provide a civil answer that will, no doubt, be just as unsatisfactory
    > as what we all already know.....those who don't "like it" will
    > continue to not "like it". As far as I'm concerned - permission
    > granted....don't "like it". Those who rant over such a thing are
    > simply displaying an "attitude" and border on being deranged.
    >
    > 2. The notion that Verizon - or any other business entity - assigns
    > billing dates arbitrarily and in a manner unfair to customers is,
    > again, simply an opinion. MANY businesses and entities use their own
    > "rules of thumb" to do similar things. A good example is Social
    > Security - the date you get your check is based on the letter of the
    > alphabet your last name starts with. A way to spread things out over
    > the month. Verizon uses their own "rule of thumb" to spread things
    > out over the month.
    >
    > 3. In point of fact, Verizon is under no obligation whatsoever to
    > make sure that you, I or anyone else is spoon-fed information
    > concerning what the billing dates are and how/why they are assigned.
    > Their obligation is to merely tell you what it is and they do that at
    > the top of every bill they send out and in the body of the contract
    > that each of us signs. It's up to us to read, understand and act
    > accordingly. Nothing anyone says will change this simple a priori
    > truth.....
    >
    > 4. This issue is, IMO, a real yawner, i.e., a trifle of the first
    > order. There must be more important things to get "bent out of shape"
    > over.....
    >
    > 5. I find Verizon's system perfectly reasonable, accurate, fair and
    > easy to understand - and so do the overwhelming majority of the 39
    > million customers who get said bill every month....
    >
    > Have a nice day!
    >
    > PC
    >
    > "Roger Binns" <rogerb@rogerbinns.com> wrote in message
    > news:n0okr1-naf.ln1@home.rogerbinns.com...
    >> Proconsul wrote:
    >>> It isn't I who has missed the point - Verizon does what they do
    >>> because they find it the way they want to do it.....

    >>
    >> An answer of "they do it that way because they do it that way" is
    >> not an answer just as saying "the earth goes around the sun because
    >> the earth goes around the sun" is not an answer, even if it is
    >> convenient for the earth to do so, and obvious that it does so.
    >>
    >>> It is, indeed, nothing more than "sour grapes", i.e., they didn't
    >>> do it your way so it's obviously wrong or some devious plot......:)

    >>
    >> Have you actually read my posts? I have not and am not complaining
    >> about it. I am merely asking why they do it that way. You are
    >> welcome to say that you don't know.
    >>
    >>> The reason is obvious - they developed a system that works for them
    >>> the way they want it to work and into which they have to weave 39
    >>> million accounts. No rocket science involved here....

    >>
    >> Well, we already know that it is different practise from every other
    >> utility and service provider out there, and that they have to explain
    >> to *every* new customer how prorating works, and they have to deal
    >> with a proportion of those customer who didn't understand or didn't
    >> pay attention. Those things cost good will and they cost CSR time
    >> for people calling in and salespeople doing the explaining. It is
    >> evident to us that there are costs to their use of random dates.
    >>
    >>> It's YOUR responsibility to pay attention, read and
    >>> understand.....it's THEIR responsibility to explain. In my
    >>> experience, they do explain. It's my observation that many people
    >>> neither listen nor read. The criticism of Verizon is, IMO, simply
    >>> not justified....

    >>
    >> That is not the point as I keep saying.
    >>
    >>> Ah, but you DO expose yourself to proration

    >>
    >> I am not asking about how proration works. Proration is *not* the
    >> issue. The issue is *why* the billing date is a random date and
    >> not based on the day you signed up. Because they pick a random
    >> day it means that every single customer has to deal with proration
    >> on their very first bill (as does the billing system), which means
    >> that the sales people have to explain, the CSRs have to deal with
    >> the people who didn't understand or pay attention etc
    >>
    >> If you change your plan later on, dealing with proration is fine,
    >> and I expect many people do what I did which is get the change to
    >> happen on the billing date therefore there were no proration issues.
    >>
    >>> A disntinction without a difference - just because YOU think it's
    >>> the "right way" doesn't make it so. Verizon's system is their
    >>> system and since it's their company, they get to make the
    >>> rules....! I don't want to argue at all - I merely contend that the
    >>> carping about Verizon's methods in re billing is unjustified....!

    >>
    >> What is so different about VZW that they can't do it the same way
    >> as every single other similar business out there? And as a customer,
    >> guess who ultimately pays for all those calls from people who didn't
    >> understand or didn't pay attention? I would rather they spend my
    >> payments on improved service, better phones, etc than on customer
    >> support that wouldn't be necessary if billing dates hadn't been
    >> made so complicated in the first place. You may understand just
    >> fine, but that doesn't mean all the other new customers do.
    >>
    >> And while I agree with you about the competency of the VZW CSRs,
    >> I have found that I have to call in too often because of billing
    >> errors and that it takes (IMHO) far to much time on the phone
    >> to resolve. Again that is customer revenue being spent on
    >> things that aren't of any real benefit to the customer or
    >> to VZW. (Feel free to call this paragraph sour grapes).
    >>
    >> Roger
     
  9. Quick

    Quick Guest

    Got to agree with Roger on this one. His first post might
    have sounded like he did not agree with the cycle date
    selection thing but everything following up was simply
    "what is the reason for doing it that way?". I think your
    argument is that their reason is their's alone and therefore
    totally irrevelant.

    1) you are right in what you say.
    2) the very first prorate is a common point of contention,
    misunderstanding, explanation ignored, etc.
    3) VZW is a huge business and the assumption is that
    there is some practical reason for the practice they have
    chosen (or not -- could be that Bob from accounting
    just abitrarily did it this way 10 years ago with out any
    thought whatsoever and it just stuck)..

    My guess is that they would not get an even distribution
    of cycle dates. There would be large concentrations
    around holidays, seasonal, etc.

    -Quick

    Proconsul wrote:
    > The discussion is becoming circular - but I thank you for remaining
    > civil and sticking to the issue(s).....:)
    >
    > I have read your posts. This is what I find and what I maintain:
    >
    > 1. The contention that Verizon should use "some other system" is
    > merely an opinion. It's a fair opinion, but that's all it is. My
    > contention remains that they do it the way they do for reasons of
    > their own - neither you nor I "needs to know" WHY....! If you must
    > know, then correspond with their corporate entities who will surely
    > provide a civil answer that will, no doubt, be just as unsatisfactory
    > as what we all already know.....those who don't "like it" will
    > continue to not "like it". As far as I'm concerned - permission
    > granted....don't "like it". Those who rant over such a thing are
    > simply displaying an "attitude" and border on being deranged.
    >
    > 2. The notion that Verizon - or any other business entity - assigns
    > billing dates arbitrarily and in a manner unfair to customers is,
    > again, simply an opinion. MANY businesses and entities use their own
    > "rules of thumb" to do similar things. A good example is Social
    > Security - the date you get your check is based on the letter of the
    > alphabet your last name starts with. A way to spread things out over
    > the month. Verizon uses their own "rule of thumb" to spread things
    > out over the month.
    >
    > 3. In point of fact, Verizon is under no obligation whatsoever to
    > make sure that you, I or anyone else is spoon-fed information
    > concerning what the billing dates are and how/why they are assigned.
    > Their obligation is to merely tell you what it is and they do that at
    > the top of every bill they send out and in the body of the contract
    > that each of us signs. It's up to us to read, understand and act
    > accordingly. Nothing anyone says will change this simple a priori
    > truth.....
    >
    > 4. This issue is, IMO, a real yawner, i.e., a trifle of the first
    > order. There must be more important things to get "bent out of shape"
    > over.....
    >
    > 5. I find Verizon's system perfectly reasonable, accurate, fair and
    > easy to understand - and so do the overwhelming majority of the 39
    > million customers who get said bill every month....
    >
    > Have a nice day!
    >
    > PC
    >
    > "Roger Binns" <rogerb@rogerbinns.com> wrote in message
    > news:n0okr1-naf.ln1@home.rogerbinns.com...
    >> Proconsul wrote:
    >>> It isn't I who has missed the point - Verizon does what they do
    >>> because they find it the way they want to do it.....

    >>
    >> An answer of "they do it that way because they do it that way" is
    >> not an answer just as saying "the earth goes around the sun because
    >> the earth goes around the sun" is not an answer, even if it is
    >> convenient for the earth to do so, and obvious that it does so.
    >>
    >>> It is, indeed, nothing more than "sour grapes", i.e., they didn't
    >>> do it your way so it's obviously wrong or some devious plot......:)

    >>
    >> Have you actually read my posts? I have not and am not complaining
    >> about it. I am merely asking why they do it that way. You are
    >> welcome to say that you don't know.
    >>
    >>> The reason is obvious - they developed a system that works for them
    >>> the way they want it to work and into which they have to weave 39
    >>> million accounts. No rocket science involved here....

    >>
    >> Well, we already know that it is different practise from every other
    >> utility and service provider out there, and that they have to explain
    >> to *every* new customer how prorating works, and they have to deal
    >> with a proportion of those customer who didn't understand or didn't
    >> pay attention. Those things cost good will and they cost CSR time
    >> for people calling in and salespeople doing the explaining. It is
    >> evident to us that there are costs to their use of random dates.
    >>
    >>> It's YOUR responsibility to pay attention, read and
    >>> understand.....it's THEIR responsibility to explain. In my
    >>> experience, they do explain. It's my observation that many people
    >>> neither listen nor read. The criticism of Verizon is, IMO, simply
    >>> not justified....

    >>
    >> That is not the point as I keep saying.
    >>
    >>> Ah, but you DO expose yourself to proration

    >>
    >> I am not asking about how proration works. Proration is *not* the
    >> issue. The issue is *why* the billing date is a random date and
    >> not based on the day you signed up. Because they pick a random
    >> day it means that every single customer has to deal with proration
    >> on their very first bill (as does the billing system), which means
    >> that the sales people have to explain, the CSRs have to deal with
    >> the people who didn't understand or pay attention etc
    >>
    >> If you change your plan later on, dealing with proration is fine,
    >> and I expect many people do what I did which is get the change to
    >> happen on the billing date therefore there were no proration issues.
    >>
    >>> A disntinction without a difference - just because YOU think it's
    >>> the "right way" doesn't make it so. Verizon's system is their
    >>> system and since it's their company, they get to make the
    >>> rules....! I don't want to argue at all - I merely contend that the
    >>> carping about Verizon's methods in re billing is unjustified....!

    >>
    >> What is so different about VZW that they can't do it the same way
    >> as every single other similar business out there? And as a customer,
    >> guess who ultimately pays for all those calls from people who didn't
    >> understand or didn't pay attention? I would rather they spend my
    >> payments on improved service, better phones, etc than on customer
    >> support that wouldn't be necessary if billing dates hadn't been
    >> made so complicated in the first place. You may understand just
    >> fine, but that doesn't mean all the other new customers do.
    >>
    >> And while I agree with you about the competency of the VZW CSRs,
    >> I have found that I have to call in too often because of billing
    >> errors and that it takes (IMHO) far to much time on the phone
    >> to resolve. Again that is customer revenue being spent on
    >> things that aren't of any real benefit to the customer or
    >> to VZW. (Feel free to call this paragraph sour grapes).
    >>
    >> Roger
     
  10. Quick

    Quick Guest

    Got to agree with Roger on this one. His first post might
    have sounded like he did not agree with the cycle date
    selection thing but everything following up was simply
    "what is the reason for doing it that way?". I think your
    argument is that their reason is their's alone and therefore
    totally irrevelant.

    1) you are right in what you say.
    2) the very first prorate is a common point of contention,
    misunderstanding, explanation ignored, etc.
    3) VZW is a huge business and the assumption is that
    there is some practical reason for the practice they have
    chosen (or not -- could be that Bob from accounting
    just abitrarily did it this way 10 years ago with out any
    thought whatsoever and it just stuck)..

    My guess is that they would not get an even distribution
    of cycle dates. There would be large concentrations
    around holidays, seasonal, etc.

    -Quick

    Proconsul wrote:
    > The discussion is becoming circular - but I thank you for remaining
    > civil and sticking to the issue(s).....:)
    >
    > I have read your posts. This is what I find and what I maintain:
    >
    > 1. The contention that Verizon should use "some other system" is
    > merely an opinion. It's a fair opinion, but that's all it is. My
    > contention remains that they do it the way they do for reasons of
    > their own - neither you nor I "needs to know" WHY....! If you must
    > know, then correspond with their corporate entities who will surely
    > provide a civil answer that will, no doubt, be just as unsatisfactory
    > as what we all already know.....those who don't "like it" will
    > continue to not "like it". As far as I'm concerned - permission
    > granted....don't "like it". Those who rant over such a thing are
    > simply displaying an "attitude" and border on being deranged.
    >
    > 2. The notion that Verizon - or any other business entity - assigns
    > billing dates arbitrarily and in a manner unfair to customers is,
    > again, simply an opinion. MANY businesses and entities use their own
    > "rules of thumb" to do similar things. A good example is Social
    > Security - the date you get your check is based on the letter of the
    > alphabet your last name starts with. A way to spread things out over
    > the month. Verizon uses their own "rule of thumb" to spread things
    > out over the month.
    >
    > 3. In point of fact, Verizon is under no obligation whatsoever to
    > make sure that you, I or anyone else is spoon-fed information
    > concerning what the billing dates are and how/why they are assigned.
    > Their obligation is to merely tell you what it is and they do that at
    > the top of every bill they send out and in the body of the contract
    > that each of us signs. It's up to us to read, understand and act
    > accordingly. Nothing anyone says will change this simple a priori
    > truth.....
    >
    > 4. This issue is, IMO, a real yawner, i.e., a trifle of the first
    > order. There must be more important things to get "bent out of shape"
    > over.....
    >
    > 5. I find Verizon's system perfectly reasonable, accurate, fair and
    > easy to understand - and so do the overwhelming majority of the 39
    > million customers who get said bill every month....
    >
    > Have a nice day!
    >
    > PC
    >
    > "Roger Binns" <rogerb@rogerbinns.com> wrote in message
    > news:n0okr1-naf.ln1@home.rogerbinns.com...
    >> Proconsul wrote:
    >>> It isn't I who has missed the point - Verizon does what they do
    >>> because they find it the way they want to do it.....

    >>
    >> An answer of "they do it that way because they do it that way" is
    >> not an answer just as saying "the earth goes around the sun because
    >> the earth goes around the sun" is not an answer, even if it is
    >> convenient for the earth to do so, and obvious that it does so.
    >>
    >>> It is, indeed, nothing more than "sour grapes", i.e., they didn't
    >>> do it your way so it's obviously wrong or some devious plot......:)

    >>
    >> Have you actually read my posts? I have not and am not complaining
    >> about it. I am merely asking why they do it that way. You are
    >> welcome to say that you don't know.
    >>
    >>> The reason is obvious - they developed a system that works for them
    >>> the way they want it to work and into which they have to weave 39
    >>> million accounts. No rocket science involved here....

    >>
    >> Well, we already know that it is different practise from every other
    >> utility and service provider out there, and that they have to explain
    >> to *every* new customer how prorating works, and they have to deal
    >> with a proportion of those customer who didn't understand or didn't
    >> pay attention. Those things cost good will and they cost CSR time
    >> for people calling in and salespeople doing the explaining. It is
    >> evident to us that there are costs to their use of random dates.
    >>
    >>> It's YOUR responsibility to pay attention, read and
    >>> understand.....it's THEIR responsibility to explain. In my
    >>> experience, they do explain. It's my observation that many people
    >>> neither listen nor read. The criticism of Verizon is, IMO, simply
    >>> not justified....

    >>
    >> That is not the point as I keep saying.
    >>
    >>> Ah, but you DO expose yourself to proration

    >>
    >> I am not asking about how proration works. Proration is *not* the
    >> issue. The issue is *why* the billing date is a random date and
    >> not based on the day you signed up. Because they pick a random
    >> day it means that every single customer has to deal with proration
    >> on their very first bill (as does the billing system), which means
    >> that the sales people have to explain, the CSRs have to deal with
    >> the people who didn't understand or pay attention etc
    >>
    >> If you change your plan later on, dealing with proration is fine,
    >> and I expect many people do what I did which is get the change to
    >> happen on the billing date therefore there were no proration issues.
    >>
    >>> A disntinction without a difference - just because YOU think it's
    >>> the "right way" doesn't make it so. Verizon's system is their
    >>> system and since it's their company, they get to make the
    >>> rules....! I don't want to argue at all - I merely contend that the
    >>> carping about Verizon's methods in re billing is unjustified....!

    >>
    >> What is so different about VZW that they can't do it the same way
    >> as every single other similar business out there? And as a customer,
    >> guess who ultimately pays for all those calls from people who didn't
    >> understand or didn't pay attention? I would rather they spend my
    >> payments on improved service, better phones, etc than on customer
    >> support that wouldn't be necessary if billing dates hadn't been
    >> made so complicated in the first place. You may understand just
    >> fine, but that doesn't mean all the other new customers do.
    >>
    >> And while I agree with you about the competency of the VZW CSRs,
    >> I have found that I have to call in too often because of billing
    >> errors and that it takes (IMHO) far to much time on the phone
    >> to resolve. Again that is customer revenue being spent on
    >> things that aren't of any real benefit to the customer or
    >> to VZW. (Feel free to call this paragraph sour grapes).
    >>
    >> Roger
     
  11. Quick

    Quick Guest

    Got to agree with Roger on this one. His first post might
    have sounded like he did not agree with the cycle date
    selection thing but everything following up was simply
    "what is the reason for doing it that way?". I think your
    argument is that their reason is their's alone and therefore
    totally irrevelant.

    1) you are right in what you say.
    2) the very first prorate is a common point of contention,
    misunderstanding, explanation ignored, etc.
    3) VZW is a huge business and the assumption is that
    there is some practical reason for the practice they have
    chosen (or not -- could be that Bob from accounting
    just abitrarily did it this way 10 years ago with out any
    thought whatsoever and it just stuck)..

    My guess is that they would not get an even distribution
    of cycle dates. There would be large concentrations
    around holidays, seasonal, etc.

    -Quick

    Proconsul wrote:
    > The discussion is becoming circular - but I thank you for remaining
    > civil and sticking to the issue(s).....:)
    >
    > I have read your posts. This is what I find and what I maintain:
    >
    > 1. The contention that Verizon should use "some other system" is
    > merely an opinion. It's a fair opinion, but that's all it is. My
    > contention remains that they do it the way they do for reasons of
    > their own - neither you nor I "needs to know" WHY....! If you must
    > know, then correspond with their corporate entities who will surely
    > provide a civil answer that will, no doubt, be just as unsatisfactory
    > as what we all already know.....those who don't "like it" will
    > continue to not "like it". As far as I'm concerned - permission
    > granted....don't "like it". Those who rant over such a thing are
    > simply displaying an "attitude" and border on being deranged.
    >
    > 2. The notion that Verizon - or any other business entity - assigns
    > billing dates arbitrarily and in a manner unfair to customers is,
    > again, simply an opinion. MANY businesses and entities use their own
    > "rules of thumb" to do similar things. A good example is Social
    > Security - the date you get your check is based on the letter of the
    > alphabet your last name starts with. A way to spread things out over
    > the month. Verizon uses their own "rule of thumb" to spread things
    > out over the month.
    >
    > 3. In point of fact, Verizon is under no obligation whatsoever to
    > make sure that you, I or anyone else is spoon-fed information
    > concerning what the billing dates are and how/why they are assigned.
    > Their obligation is to merely tell you what it is and they do that at
    > the top of every bill they send out and in the body of the contract
    > that each of us signs. It's up to us to read, understand and act
    > accordingly. Nothing anyone says will change this simple a priori
    > truth.....
    >
    > 4. This issue is, IMO, a real yawner, i.e., a trifle of the first
    > order. There must be more important things to get "bent out of shape"
    > over.....
    >
    > 5. I find Verizon's system perfectly reasonable, accurate, fair and
    > easy to understand - and so do the overwhelming majority of the 39
    > million customers who get said bill every month....
    >
    > Have a nice day!
    >
    > PC
    >
    > "Roger Binns" <rogerb@rogerbinns.com> wrote in message
    > news:n0okr1-naf.ln1@home.rogerbinns.com...
    >> Proconsul wrote:
    >>> It isn't I who has missed the point - Verizon does what they do
    >>> because they find it the way they want to do it.....

    >>
    >> An answer of "they do it that way because they do it that way" is
    >> not an answer just as saying "the earth goes around the sun because
    >> the earth goes around the sun" is not an answer, even if it is
    >> convenient for the earth to do so, and obvious that it does so.
    >>
    >>> It is, indeed, nothing more than "sour grapes", i.e., they didn't
    >>> do it your way so it's obviously wrong or some devious plot......:)

    >>
    >> Have you actually read my posts? I have not and am not complaining
    >> about it. I am merely asking why they do it that way. You are
    >> welcome to say that you don't know.
    >>
    >>> The reason is obvious - they developed a system that works for them
    >>> the way they want it to work and into which they have to weave 39
    >>> million accounts. No rocket science involved here....

    >>
    >> Well, we already know that it is different practise from every other
    >> utility and service provider out there, and that they have to explain
    >> to *every* new customer how prorating works, and they have to deal
    >> with a proportion of those customer who didn't understand or didn't
    >> pay attention. Those things cost good will and they cost CSR time
    >> for people calling in and salespeople doing the explaining. It is
    >> evident to us that there are costs to their use of random dates.
    >>
    >>> It's YOUR responsibility to pay attention, read and
    >>> understand.....it's THEIR responsibility to explain. In my
    >>> experience, they do explain. It's my observation that many people
    >>> neither listen nor read. The criticism of Verizon is, IMO, simply
    >>> not justified....

    >>
    >> That is not the point as I keep saying.
    >>
    >>> Ah, but you DO expose yourself to proration

    >>
    >> I am not asking about how proration works. Proration is *not* the
    >> issue. The issue is *why* the billing date is a random date and
    >> not based on the day you signed up. Because they pick a random
    >> day it means that every single customer has to deal with proration
    >> on their very first bill (as does the billing system), which means
    >> that the sales people have to explain, the CSRs have to deal with
    >> the people who didn't understand or pay attention etc
    >>
    >> If you change your plan later on, dealing with proration is fine,
    >> and I expect many people do what I did which is get the change to
    >> happen on the billing date therefore there were no proration issues.
    >>
    >>> A disntinction without a difference - just because YOU think it's
    >>> the "right way" doesn't make it so. Verizon's system is their
    >>> system and since it's their company, they get to make the
    >>> rules....! I don't want to argue at all - I merely contend that the
    >>> carping about Verizon's methods in re billing is unjustified....!

    >>
    >> What is so different about VZW that they can't do it the same way
    >> as every single other similar business out there? And as a customer,
    >> guess who ultimately pays for all those calls from people who didn't
    >> understand or didn't pay attention? I would rather they spend my
    >> payments on improved service, better phones, etc than on customer
    >> support that wouldn't be necessary if billing dates hadn't been
    >> made so complicated in the first place. You may understand just
    >> fine, but that doesn't mean all the other new customers do.
    >>
    >> And while I agree with you about the competency of the VZW CSRs,
    >> I have found that I have to call in too often because of billing
    >> errors and that it takes (IMHO) far to much time on the phone
    >> to resolve. Again that is customer revenue being spent on
    >> things that aren't of any real benefit to the customer or
    >> to VZW. (Feel free to call this paragraph sour grapes).
    >>
    >> Roger
     
  12. Proconsul

    Proconsul Guest

    Once again, it's a "non-issue".....

    Why they choose to do it isn't relevant to anything that matters - all they
    have to do is tell you, which they do....

    My main point is that there are plenty of important things to focus on
    instead of this irrelevant trifle....

    PC

    "Quick" <Quick7135-news@NOSPAMyahoo.com> wrote in message
    news:jpWFc.6188$7y4.5423@newssvr25.news.prodigy.com...
    | Got to agree with Roger on this one. His first post might
    | have sounded like he did not agree with the cycle date
    | selection thing but everything following up was simply
    | "what is the reason for doing it that way?". I think your
    | argument is that their reason is their's alone and therefore
    | totally irrevelant.
    |
    | 1) you are right in what you say.
    | 2) the very first prorate is a common point of contention,
    | misunderstanding, explanation ignored, etc.
    | 3) VZW is a huge business and the assumption is that
    | there is some practical reason for the practice they have
    | chosen (or not -- could be that Bob from accounting
    | just abitrarily did it this way 10 years ago with out any
    | thought whatsoever and it just stuck)..
    |
    | My guess is that they would not get an even distribution
    | of cycle dates. There would be large concentrations
    | around holidays, seasonal, etc.
    |
    | -Quick
    |
    | Proconsul wrote:
    | > The discussion is becoming circular - but I thank you for remaining
    | > civil and sticking to the issue(s).....:)
    | >
    | > I have read your posts. This is what I find and what I maintain:
    | >
    | > 1. The contention that Verizon should use "some other system" is
    | > merely an opinion. It's a fair opinion, but that's all it is. My
    | > contention remains that they do it the way they do for reasons of
    | > their own - neither you nor I "needs to know" WHY....! If you must
    | > know, then correspond with their corporate entities who will surely
    | > provide a civil answer that will, no doubt, be just as unsatisfactory
    | > as what we all already know.....those who don't "like it" will
    | > continue to not "like it". As far as I'm concerned - permission
    | > granted....don't "like it". Those who rant over such a thing are
    | > simply displaying an "attitude" and border on being deranged.
    | >
    | > 2. The notion that Verizon - or any other business entity - assigns
    | > billing dates arbitrarily and in a manner unfair to customers is,
    | > again, simply an opinion. MANY businesses and entities use their own
    | > "rules of thumb" to do similar things. A good example is Social
    | > Security - the date you get your check is based on the letter of the
    | > alphabet your last name starts with. A way to spread things out over
    | > the month. Verizon uses their own "rule of thumb" to spread things
    | > out over the month.
    | >
    | > 3. In point of fact, Verizon is under no obligation whatsoever to
    | > make sure that you, I or anyone else is spoon-fed information
    | > concerning what the billing dates are and how/why they are assigned.
    | > Their obligation is to merely tell you what it is and they do that at
    | > the top of every bill they send out and in the body of the contract
    | > that each of us signs. It's up to us to read, understand and act
    | > accordingly. Nothing anyone says will change this simple a priori
    | > truth.....
    | >
    | > 4. This issue is, IMO, a real yawner, i.e., a trifle of the first
    | > order. There must be more important things to get "bent out of shape"
    | > over.....
    | >
    | > 5. I find Verizon's system perfectly reasonable, accurate, fair and
    | > easy to understand - and so do the overwhelming majority of the 39
    | > million customers who get said bill every month....
    | >
    | > Have a nice day!
    | >
    | > PC
    | >
    | > "Roger Binns" <rogerb@rogerbinns.com> wrote in message
    | > news:n0okr1-naf.ln1@home.rogerbinns.com...
    | >> Proconsul wrote:
    | >>> It isn't I who has missed the point - Verizon does what they do
    | >>> because they find it the way they want to do it.....
    | >>
    | >> An answer of "they do it that way because they do it that way" is
    | >> not an answer just as saying "the earth goes around the sun because
    | >> the earth goes around the sun" is not an answer, even if it is
    | >> convenient for the earth to do so, and obvious that it does so.
    | >>
    | >>> It is, indeed, nothing more than "sour grapes", i.e., they didn't
    | >>> do it your way so it's obviously wrong or some devious plot......:)
    | >>
    | >> Have you actually read my posts? I have not and am not complaining
    | >> about it. I am merely asking why they do it that way. You are
    | >> welcome to say that you don't know.
    | >>
    | >>> The reason is obvious - they developed a system that works for them
    | >>> the way they want it to work and into which they have to weave 39
    | >>> million accounts. No rocket science involved here....
    | >>
    | >> Well, we already know that it is different practise from every other
    | >> utility and service provider out there, and that they have to explain
    | >> to *every* new customer how prorating works, and they have to deal
    | >> with a proportion of those customer who didn't understand or didn't
    | >> pay attention. Those things cost good will and they cost CSR time
    | >> for people calling in and salespeople doing the explaining. It is
    | >> evident to us that there are costs to their use of random dates.
    | >>
    | >>> It's YOUR responsibility to pay attention, read and
    | >>> understand.....it's THEIR responsibility to explain. In my
    | >>> experience, they do explain. It's my observation that many people
    | >>> neither listen nor read. The criticism of Verizon is, IMO, simply
    | >>> not justified....
    | >>
    | >> That is not the point as I keep saying.
    | >>
    | >>> Ah, but you DO expose yourself to proration
    | >>
    | >> I am not asking about how proration works. Proration is *not* the
    | >> issue. The issue is *why* the billing date is a random date and
    | >> not based on the day you signed up. Because they pick a random
    | >> day it means that every single customer has to deal with proration
    | >> on their very first bill (as does the billing system), which means
    | >> that the sales people have to explain, the CSRs have to deal with
    | >> the people who didn't understand or pay attention etc
    | >>
    | >> If you change your plan later on, dealing with proration is fine,
    | >> and I expect many people do what I did which is get the change to
    | >> happen on the billing date therefore there were no proration issues.
    | >>
    | >>> A disntinction without a difference - just because YOU think it's
    | >>> the "right way" doesn't make it so. Verizon's system is their
    | >>> system and since it's their company, they get to make the
    | >>> rules....! I don't want to argue at all - I merely contend that the
    | >>> carping about Verizon's methods in re billing is unjustified....!
    | >>
    | >> What is so different about VZW that they can't do it the same way
    | >> as every single other similar business out there? And as a customer,
    | >> guess who ultimately pays for all those calls from people who didn't
    | >> understand or didn't pay attention? I would rather they spend my
    | >> payments on improved service, better phones, etc than on customer
    | >> support that wouldn't be necessary if billing dates hadn't been
    | >> made so complicated in the first place. You may understand just
    | >> fine, but that doesn't mean all the other new customers do.
    | >>
    | >> And while I agree with you about the competency of the VZW CSRs,
    | >> I have found that I have to call in too often because of billing
    | >> errors and that it takes (IMHO) far to much time on the phone
    | >> to resolve. Again that is customer revenue being spent on
    | >> things that aren't of any real benefit to the customer or
    | >> to VZW. (Feel free to call this paragraph sour grapes).
    | >>
    | >> Roger
    |
    |
     
  13. Proconsul

    Proconsul Guest

    Once again, it's a "non-issue".....

    Why they choose to do it isn't relevant to anything that matters - all they
    have to do is tell you, which they do....

    My main point is that there are plenty of important things to focus on
    instead of this irrelevant trifle....

    PC

    "Quick" <Quick7135-news@NOSPAMyahoo.com> wrote in message
    news:jpWFc.6188$7y4.5423@newssvr25.news.prodigy.com...
    | Got to agree with Roger on this one. His first post might
    | have sounded like he did not agree with the cycle date
    | selection thing but everything following up was simply
    | "what is the reason for doing it that way?". I think your
    | argument is that their reason is their's alone and therefore
    | totally irrevelant.
    |
    | 1) you are right in what you say.
    | 2) the very first prorate is a common point of contention,
    | misunderstanding, explanation ignored, etc.
    | 3) VZW is a huge business and the assumption is that
    | there is some practical reason for the practice they have
    | chosen (or not -- could be that Bob from accounting
    | just abitrarily did it this way 10 years ago with out any
    | thought whatsoever and it just stuck)..
    |
    | My guess is that they would not get an even distribution
    | of cycle dates. There would be large concentrations
    | around holidays, seasonal, etc.
    |
    | -Quick
    |
    | Proconsul wrote:
    | > The discussion is becoming circular - but I thank you for remaining
    | > civil and sticking to the issue(s).....:)
    | >
    | > I have read your posts. This is what I find and what I maintain:
    | >
    | > 1. The contention that Verizon should use "some other system" is
    | > merely an opinion. It's a fair opinion, but that's all it is. My
    | > contention remains that they do it the way they do for reasons of
    | > their own - neither you nor I "needs to know" WHY....! If you must
    | > know, then correspond with their corporate entities who will surely
    | > provide a civil answer that will, no doubt, be just as unsatisfactory
    | > as what we all already know.....those who don't "like it" will
    | > continue to not "like it". As far as I'm concerned - permission
    | > granted....don't "like it". Those who rant over such a thing are
    | > simply displaying an "attitude" and border on being deranged.
    | >
    | > 2. The notion that Verizon - or any other business entity - assigns
    | > billing dates arbitrarily and in a manner unfair to customers is,
    | > again, simply an opinion. MANY businesses and entities use their own
    | > "rules of thumb" to do similar things. A good example is Social
    | > Security - the date you get your check is based on the letter of the
    | > alphabet your last name starts with. A way to spread things out over
    | > the month. Verizon uses their own "rule of thumb" to spread things
    | > out over the month.
    | >
    | > 3. In point of fact, Verizon is under no obligation whatsoever to
    | > make sure that you, I or anyone else is spoon-fed information
    | > concerning what the billing dates are and how/why they are assigned.
    | > Their obligation is to merely tell you what it is and they do that at
    | > the top of every bill they send out and in the body of the contract
    | > that each of us signs. It's up to us to read, understand and act
    | > accordingly. Nothing anyone says will change this simple a priori
    | > truth.....
    | >
    | > 4. This issue is, IMO, a real yawner, i.e., a trifle of the first
    | > order. There must be more important things to get "bent out of shape"
    | > over.....
    | >
    | > 5. I find Verizon's system perfectly reasonable, accurate, fair and
    | > easy to understand - and so do the overwhelming majority of the 39
    | > million customers who get said bill every month....
    | >
    | > Have a nice day!
    | >
    | > PC
    | >
    | > "Roger Binns" <rogerb@rogerbinns.com> wrote in message
    | > news:n0okr1-naf.ln1@home.rogerbinns.com...
    | >> Proconsul wrote:
    | >>> It isn't I who has missed the point - Verizon does what they do
    | >>> because they find it the way they want to do it.....
    | >>
    | >> An answer of "they do it that way because they do it that way" is
    | >> not an answer just as saying "the earth goes around the sun because
    | >> the earth goes around the sun" is not an answer, even if it is
    | >> convenient for the earth to do so, and obvious that it does so.
    | >>
    | >>> It is, indeed, nothing more than "sour grapes", i.e., they didn't
    | >>> do it your way so it's obviously wrong or some devious plot......:)
    | >>
    | >> Have you actually read my posts? I have not and am not complaining
    | >> about it. I am merely asking why they do it that way. You are
    | >> welcome to say that you don't know.
    | >>
    | >>> The reason is obvious - they developed a system that works for them
    | >>> the way they want it to work and into which they have to weave 39
    | >>> million accounts. No rocket science involved here....
    | >>
    | >> Well, we already know that it is different practise from every other
    | >> utility and service provider out there, and that they have to explain
    | >> to *every* new customer how prorating works, and they have to deal
    | >> with a proportion of those customer who didn't understand or didn't
    | >> pay attention. Those things cost good will and they cost CSR time
    | >> for people calling in and salespeople doing the explaining. It is
    | >> evident to us that there are costs to their use of random dates.
    | >>
    | >>> It's YOUR responsibility to pay attention, read and
    | >>> understand.....it's THEIR responsibility to explain. In my
    | >>> experience, they do explain. It's my observation that many people
    | >>> neither listen nor read. The criticism of Verizon is, IMO, simply
    | >>> not justified....
    | >>
    | >> That is not the point as I keep saying.
    | >>
    | >>> Ah, but you DO expose yourself to proration
    | >>
    | >> I am not asking about how proration works. Proration is *not* the
    | >> issue. The issue is *why* the billing date is a random date and
    | >> not based on the day you signed up. Because they pick a random
    | >> day it means that every single customer has to deal with proration
    | >> on their very first bill (as does the billing system), which means
    | >> that the sales people have to explain, the CSRs have to deal with
    | >> the people who didn't understand or pay attention etc
    | >>
    | >> If you change your plan later on, dealing with proration is fine,
    | >> and I expect many people do what I did which is get the change to
    | >> happen on the billing date therefore there were no proration issues.
    | >>
    | >>> A disntinction without a difference - just because YOU think it's
    | >>> the "right way" doesn't make it so. Verizon's system is their
    | >>> system and since it's their company, they get to make the
    | >>> rules....! I don't want to argue at all - I merely contend that the
    | >>> carping about Verizon's methods in re billing is unjustified....!
    | >>
    | >> What is so different about VZW that they can't do it the same way
    | >> as every single other similar business out there? And as a customer,
    | >> guess who ultimately pays for all those calls from people who didn't
    | >> understand or didn't pay attention? I would rather they spend my
    | >> payments on improved service, better phones, etc than on customer
    | >> support that wouldn't be necessary if billing dates hadn't been
    | >> made so complicated in the first place. You may understand just
    | >> fine, but that doesn't mean all the other new customers do.
    | >>
    | >> And while I agree with you about the competency of the VZW CSRs,
    | >> I have found that I have to call in too often because of billing
    | >> errors and that it takes (IMHO) far to much time on the phone
    | >> to resolve. Again that is customer revenue being spent on
    | >> things that aren't of any real benefit to the customer or
    | >> to VZW. (Feel free to call this paragraph sour grapes).
    | >>
    | >> Roger
    |
    |
     
  14. Proconsul

    Proconsul Guest

    Once again, it's a "non-issue".....

    Why they choose to do it isn't relevant to anything that matters - all they
    have to do is tell you, which they do....

    My main point is that there are plenty of important things to focus on
    instead of this irrelevant trifle....

    PC

    "Quick" <Quick7135-news@NOSPAMyahoo.com> wrote in message
    news:jpWFc.6188$7y4.5423@newssvr25.news.prodigy.com...
    | Got to agree with Roger on this one. His first post might
    | have sounded like he did not agree with the cycle date
    | selection thing but everything following up was simply
    | "what is the reason for doing it that way?". I think your
    | argument is that their reason is their's alone and therefore
    | totally irrevelant.
    |
    | 1) you are right in what you say.
    | 2) the very first prorate is a common point of contention,
    | misunderstanding, explanation ignored, etc.
    | 3) VZW is a huge business and the assumption is that
    | there is some practical reason for the practice they have
    | chosen (or not -- could be that Bob from accounting
    | just abitrarily did it this way 10 years ago with out any
    | thought whatsoever and it just stuck)..
    |
    | My guess is that they would not get an even distribution
    | of cycle dates. There would be large concentrations
    | around holidays, seasonal, etc.
    |
    | -Quick
    |
    | Proconsul wrote:
    | > The discussion is becoming circular - but I thank you for remaining
    | > civil and sticking to the issue(s).....:)
    | >
    | > I have read your posts. This is what I find and what I maintain:
    | >
    | > 1. The contention that Verizon should use "some other system" is
    | > merely an opinion. It's a fair opinion, but that's all it is. My
    | > contention remains that they do it the way they do for reasons of
    | > their own - neither you nor I "needs to know" WHY....! If you must
    | > know, then correspond with their corporate entities who will surely
    | > provide a civil answer that will, no doubt, be just as unsatisfactory
    | > as what we all already know.....those who don't "like it" will
    | > continue to not "like it". As far as I'm concerned - permission
    | > granted....don't "like it". Those who rant over such a thing are
    | > simply displaying an "attitude" and border on being deranged.
    | >
    | > 2. The notion that Verizon - or any other business entity - assigns
    | > billing dates arbitrarily and in a manner unfair to customers is,
    | > again, simply an opinion. MANY businesses and entities use their own
    | > "rules of thumb" to do similar things. A good example is Social
    | > Security - the date you get your check is based on the letter of the
    | > alphabet your last name starts with. A way to spread things out over
    | > the month. Verizon uses their own "rule of thumb" to spread things
    | > out over the month.
    | >
    | > 3. In point of fact, Verizon is under no obligation whatsoever to
    | > make sure that you, I or anyone else is spoon-fed information
    | > concerning what the billing dates are and how/why they are assigned.
    | > Their obligation is to merely tell you what it is and they do that at
    | > the top of every bill they send out and in the body of the contract
    | > that each of us signs. It's up to us to read, understand and act
    | > accordingly. Nothing anyone says will change this simple a priori
    | > truth.....
    | >
    | > 4. This issue is, IMO, a real yawner, i.e., a trifle of the first
    | > order. There must be more important things to get "bent out of shape"
    | > over.....
    | >
    | > 5. I find Verizon's system perfectly reasonable, accurate, fair and
    | > easy to understand - and so do the overwhelming majority of the 39
    | > million customers who get said bill every month....
    | >
    | > Have a nice day!
    | >
    | > PC
    | >
    | > "Roger Binns" <rogerb@rogerbinns.com> wrote in message
    | > news:n0okr1-naf.ln1@home.rogerbinns.com...
    | >> Proconsul wrote:
    | >>> It isn't I who has missed the point - Verizon does what they do
    | >>> because they find it the way they want to do it.....
    | >>
    | >> An answer of "they do it that way because they do it that way" is
    | >> not an answer just as saying "the earth goes around the sun because
    | >> the earth goes around the sun" is not an answer, even if it is
    | >> convenient for the earth to do so, and obvious that it does so.
    | >>
    | >>> It is, indeed, nothing more than "sour grapes", i.e., they didn't
    | >>> do it your way so it's obviously wrong or some devious plot......:)
    | >>
    | >> Have you actually read my posts? I have not and am not complaining
    | >> about it. I am merely asking why they do it that way. You are
    | >> welcome to say that you don't know.
    | >>
    | >>> The reason is obvious - they developed a system that works for them
    | >>> the way they want it to work and into which they have to weave 39
    | >>> million accounts. No rocket science involved here....
    | >>
    | >> Well, we already know that it is different practise from every other
    | >> utility and service provider out there, and that they have to explain
    | >> to *every* new customer how prorating works, and they have to deal
    | >> with a proportion of those customer who didn't understand or didn't
    | >> pay attention. Those things cost good will and they cost CSR time
    | >> for people calling in and salespeople doing the explaining. It is
    | >> evident to us that there are costs to their use of random dates.
    | >>
    | >>> It's YOUR responsibility to pay attention, read and
    | >>> understand.....it's THEIR responsibility to explain. In my
    | >>> experience, they do explain. It's my observation that many people
    | >>> neither listen nor read. The criticism of Verizon is, IMO, simply
    | >>> not justified....
    | >>
    | >> That is not the point as I keep saying.
    | >>
    | >>> Ah, but you DO expose yourself to proration
    | >>
    | >> I am not asking about how proration works. Proration is *not* the
    | >> issue. The issue is *why* the billing date is a random date and
    | >> not based on the day you signed up. Because they pick a random
    | >> day it means that every single customer has to deal with proration
    | >> on their very first bill (as does the billing system), which means
    | >> that the sales people have to explain, the CSRs have to deal with
    | >> the people who didn't understand or pay attention etc
    | >>
    | >> If you change your plan later on, dealing with proration is fine,
    | >> and I expect many people do what I did which is get the change to
    | >> happen on the billing date therefore there were no proration issues.
    | >>
    | >>> A disntinction without a difference - just because YOU think it's
    | >>> the "right way" doesn't make it so. Verizon's system is their
    | >>> system and since it's their company, they get to make the
    | >>> rules....! I don't want to argue at all - I merely contend that the
    | >>> carping about Verizon's methods in re billing is unjustified....!
    | >>
    | >> What is so different about VZW that they can't do it the same way
    | >> as every single other similar business out there? And as a customer,
    | >> guess who ultimately pays for all those calls from people who didn't
    | >> understand or didn't pay attention? I would rather they spend my
    | >> payments on improved service, better phones, etc than on customer
    | >> support that wouldn't be necessary if billing dates hadn't been
    | >> made so complicated in the first place. You may understand just
    | >> fine, but that doesn't mean all the other new customers do.
    | >>
    | >> And while I agree with you about the competency of the VZW CSRs,
    | >> I have found that I have to call in too often because of billing
    | >> errors and that it takes (IMHO) far to much time on the phone
    | >> to resolve. Again that is customer revenue being spent on
    | >> things that aren't of any real benefit to the customer or
    | >> to VZW. (Feel free to call this paragraph sour grapes).
    | >>
    | >> Roger
    |
    |
     
  15. Proconsul

    Proconsul Guest

    Once again, it's a "non-issue".....

    Why they choose to do it isn't relevant to anything that matters - all they
    have to do is tell you, which they do....

    My main point is that there are plenty of important things to focus on
    instead of this irrelevant trifle....

    PC

    "Quick" <Quick7135-news@NOSPAMyahoo.com> wrote in message
    news:jpWFc.6188$7y4.5423@newssvr25.news.prodigy.com...
    | Got to agree with Roger on this one. His first post might
    | have sounded like he did not agree with the cycle date
    | selection thing but everything following up was simply
    | "what is the reason for doing it that way?". I think your
    | argument is that their reason is their's alone and therefore
    | totally irrevelant.
    |
    | 1) you are right in what you say.
    | 2) the very first prorate is a common point of contention,
    | misunderstanding, explanation ignored, etc.
    | 3) VZW is a huge business and the assumption is that
    | there is some practical reason for the practice they have
    | chosen (or not -- could be that Bob from accounting
    | just abitrarily did it this way 10 years ago with out any
    | thought whatsoever and it just stuck)..
    |
    | My guess is that they would not get an even distribution
    | of cycle dates. There would be large concentrations
    | around holidays, seasonal, etc.
    |
    | -Quick
    |
    | Proconsul wrote:
    | > The discussion is becoming circular - but I thank you for remaining
    | > civil and sticking to the issue(s).....:)
    | >
    | > I have read your posts. This is what I find and what I maintain:
    | >
    | > 1. The contention that Verizon should use "some other system" is
    | > merely an opinion. It's a fair opinion, but that's all it is. My
    | > contention remains that they do it the way they do for reasons of
    | > their own - neither you nor I "needs to know" WHY....! If you must
    | > know, then correspond with their corporate entities who will surely
    | > provide a civil answer that will, no doubt, be just as unsatisfactory
    | > as what we all already know.....those who don't "like it" will
    | > continue to not "like it". As far as I'm concerned - permission
    | > granted....don't "like it". Those who rant over such a thing are
    | > simply displaying an "attitude" and border on being deranged.
    | >
    | > 2. The notion that Verizon - or any other business entity - assigns
    | > billing dates arbitrarily and in a manner unfair to customers is,
    | > again, simply an opinion. MANY businesses and entities use their own
    | > "rules of thumb" to do similar things. A good example is Social
    | > Security - the date you get your check is based on the letter of the
    | > alphabet your last name starts with. A way to spread things out over
    | > the month. Verizon uses their own "rule of thumb" to spread things
    | > out over the month.
    | >
    | > 3. In point of fact, Verizon is under no obligation whatsoever to
    | > make sure that you, I or anyone else is spoon-fed information
    | > concerning what the billing dates are and how/why they are assigned.
    | > Their obligation is to merely tell you what it is and they do that at
    | > the top of every bill they send out and in the body of the contract
    | > that each of us signs. It's up to us to read, understand and act
    | > accordingly. Nothing anyone says will change this simple a priori
    | > truth.....
    | >
    | > 4. This issue is, IMO, a real yawner, i.e., a trifle of the first
    | > order. There must be more important things to get "bent out of shape"
    | > over.....
    | >
    | > 5. I find Verizon's system perfectly reasonable, accurate, fair and
    | > easy to understand - and so do the overwhelming majority of the 39
    | > million customers who get said bill every month....
    | >
    | > Have a nice day!
    | >
    | > PC
    | >
    | > "Roger Binns" <rogerb@rogerbinns.com> wrote in message
    | > news:n0okr1-naf.ln1@home.rogerbinns.com...
    | >> Proconsul wrote:
    | >>> It isn't I who has missed the point - Verizon does what they do
    | >>> because they find it the way they want to do it.....
    | >>
    | >> An answer of "they do it that way because they do it that way" is
    | >> not an answer just as saying "the earth goes around the sun because
    | >> the earth goes around the sun" is not an answer, even if it is
    | >> convenient for the earth to do so, and obvious that it does so.
    | >>
    | >>> It is, indeed, nothing more than "sour grapes", i.e., they didn't
    | >>> do it your way so it's obviously wrong or some devious plot......:)
    | >>
    | >> Have you actually read my posts? I have not and am not complaining
    | >> about it. I am merely asking why they do it that way. You are
    | >> welcome to say that you don't know.
    | >>
    | >>> The reason is obvious - they developed a system that works for them
    | >>> the way they want it to work and into which they have to weave 39
    | >>> million accounts. No rocket science involved here....
    | >>
    | >> Well, we already know that it is different practise from every other
    | >> utility and service provider out there, and that they have to explain
    | >> to *every* new customer how prorating works, and they have to deal
    | >> with a proportion of those customer who didn't understand or didn't
    | >> pay attention. Those things cost good will and they cost CSR time
    | >> for people calling in and salespeople doing the explaining. It is
    | >> evident to us that there are costs to their use of random dates.
    | >>
    | >>> It's YOUR responsibility to pay attention, read and
    | >>> understand.....it's THEIR responsibility to explain. In my
    | >>> experience, they do explain. It's my observation that many people
    | >>> neither listen nor read. The criticism of Verizon is, IMO, simply
    | >>> not justified....
    | >>
    | >> That is not the point as I keep saying.
    | >>
    | >>> Ah, but you DO expose yourself to proration
    | >>
    | >> I am not asking about how proration works. Proration is *not* the
    | >> issue. The issue is *why* the billing date is a random date and
    | >> not based on the day you signed up. Because they pick a random
    | >> day it means that every single customer has to deal with proration
    | >> on their very first bill (as does the billing system), which means
    | >> that the sales people have to explain, the CSRs have to deal with
    | >> the people who didn't understand or pay attention etc
    | >>
    | >> If you change your plan later on, dealing with proration is fine,
    | >> and I expect many people do what I did which is get the change to
    | >> happen on the billing date therefore there were no proration issues.
    | >>
    | >>> A disntinction without a difference - just because YOU think it's
    | >>> the "right way" doesn't make it so. Verizon's system is their
    | >>> system and since it's their company, they get to make the
    | >>> rules....! I don't want to argue at all - I merely contend that the
    | >>> carping about Verizon's methods in re billing is unjustified....!
    | >>
    | >> What is so different about VZW that they can't do it the same way
    | >> as every single other similar business out there? And as a customer,
    | >> guess who ultimately pays for all those calls from people who didn't
    | >> understand or didn't pay attention? I would rather they spend my
    | >> payments on improved service, better phones, etc than on customer
    | >> support that wouldn't be necessary if billing dates hadn't been
    | >> made so complicated in the first place. You may understand just
    | >> fine, but that doesn't mean all the other new customers do.
    | >>
    | >> And while I agree with you about the competency of the VZW CSRs,
    | >> I have found that I have to call in too often because of billing
    | >> errors and that it takes (IMHO) far to much time on the phone
    | >> to resolve. Again that is customer revenue being spent on
    | >> things that aren't of any real benefit to the customer or
    | >> to VZW. (Feel free to call this paragraph sour grapes).
    | >>
    | >> Roger
    |
    |
     
  16. Proconsul

    Proconsul Guest

    Once again, it's a "non-issue".....

    Why they choose to do it isn't relevant to anything that matters - all they
    have to do is tell you, which they do....

    My main point is that there are plenty of important things to focus on
    instead of this irrelevant trifle....

    PC

    "Quick" <Quick7135-news@NOSPAMyahoo.com> wrote in message
    news:jpWFc.6188$7y4.5423@newssvr25.news.prodigy.com...
    | Got to agree with Roger on this one. His first post might
    | have sounded like he did not agree with the cycle date
    | selection thing but everything following up was simply
    | "what is the reason for doing it that way?". I think your
    | argument is that their reason is their's alone and therefore
    | totally irrevelant.
    |
    | 1) you are right in what you say.
    | 2) the very first prorate is a common point of contention,
    | misunderstanding, explanation ignored, etc.
    | 3) VZW is a huge business and the assumption is that
    | there is some practical reason for the practice they have
    | chosen (or not -- could be that Bob from accounting
    | just abitrarily did it this way 10 years ago with out any
    | thought whatsoever and it just stuck)..
    |
    | My guess is that they would not get an even distribution
    | of cycle dates. There would be large concentrations
    | around holidays, seasonal, etc.
    |
    | -Quick
    |
    | Proconsul wrote:
    | > The discussion is becoming circular - but I thank you for remaining
    | > civil and sticking to the issue(s).....:)
    | >
    | > I have read your posts. This is what I find and what I maintain:
    | >
    | > 1. The contention that Verizon should use "some other system" is
    | > merely an opinion. It's a fair opinion, but that's all it is. My
    | > contention remains that they do it the way they do for reasons of
    | > their own - neither you nor I "needs to know" WHY....! If you must
    | > know, then correspond with their corporate entities who will surely
    | > provide a civil answer that will, no doubt, be just as unsatisfactory
    | > as what we all already know.....those who don't "like it" will
    | > continue to not "like it". As far as I'm concerned - permission
    | > granted....don't "like it". Those who rant over such a thing are
    | > simply displaying an "attitude" and border on being deranged.
    | >
    | > 2. The notion that Verizon - or any other business entity - assigns
    | > billing dates arbitrarily and in a manner unfair to customers is,
    | > again, simply an opinion. MANY businesses and entities use their own
    | > "rules of thumb" to do similar things. A good example is Social
    | > Security - the date you get your check is based on the letter of the
    | > alphabet your last name starts with. A way to spread things out over
    | > the month. Verizon uses their own "rule of thumb" to spread things
    | > out over the month.
    | >
    | > 3. In point of fact, Verizon is under no obligation whatsoever to
    | > make sure that you, I or anyone else is spoon-fed information
    | > concerning what the billing dates are and how/why they are assigned.
    | > Their obligation is to merely tell you what it is and they do that at
    | > the top of every bill they send out and in the body of the contract
    | > that each of us signs. It's up to us to read, understand and act
    | > accordingly. Nothing anyone says will change this simple a priori
    | > truth.....
    | >
    | > 4. This issue is, IMO, a real yawner, i.e., a trifle of the first
    | > order. There must be more important things to get "bent out of shape"
    | > over.....
    | >
    | > 5. I find Verizon's system perfectly reasonable, accurate, fair and
    | > easy to understand - and so do the overwhelming majority of the 39
    | > million customers who get said bill every month....
    | >
    | > Have a nice day!
    | >
    | > PC
    | >
    | > "Roger Binns" <rogerb@rogerbinns.com> wrote in message
    | > news:n0okr1-naf.ln1@home.rogerbinns.com...
    | >> Proconsul wrote:
    | >>> It isn't I who has missed the point - Verizon does what they do
    | >>> because they find it the way they want to do it.....
    | >>
    | >> An answer of "they do it that way because they do it that way" is
    | >> not an answer just as saying "the earth goes around the sun because
    | >> the earth goes around the sun" is not an answer, even if it is
    | >> convenient for the earth to do so, and obvious that it does so.
    | >>
    | >>> It is, indeed, nothing more than "sour grapes", i.e., they didn't
    | >>> do it your way so it's obviously wrong or some devious plot......:)
    | >>
    | >> Have you actually read my posts? I have not and am not complaining
    | >> about it. I am merely asking why they do it that way. You are
    | >> welcome to say that you don't know.
    | >>
    | >>> The reason is obvious - they developed a system that works for them
    | >>> the way they want it to work and into which they have to weave 39
    | >>> million accounts. No rocket science involved here....
    | >>
    | >> Well, we already know that it is different practise from every other
    | >> utility and service provider out there, and that they have to explain
    | >> to *every* new customer how prorating works, and they have to deal
    | >> with a proportion of those customer who didn't understand or didn't
    | >> pay attention. Those things cost good will and they cost CSR time
    | >> for people calling in and salespeople doing the explaining. It is
    | >> evident to us that there are costs to their use of random dates.
    | >>
    | >>> It's YOUR responsibility to pay attention, read and
    | >>> understand.....it's THEIR responsibility to explain. In my
    | >>> experience, they do explain. It's my observation that many people
    | >>> neither listen nor read. The criticism of Verizon is, IMO, simply
    | >>> not justified....
    | >>
    | >> That is not the point as I keep saying.
    | >>
    | >>> Ah, but you DO expose yourself to proration
    | >>
    | >> I am not asking about how proration works. Proration is *not* the
    | >> issue. The issue is *why* the billing date is a random date and
    | >> not based on the day you signed up. Because they pick a random
    | >> day it means that every single customer has to deal with proration
    | >> on their very first bill (as does the billing system), which means
    | >> that the sales people have to explain, the CSRs have to deal with
    | >> the people who didn't understand or pay attention etc
    | >>
    | >> If you change your plan later on, dealing with proration is fine,
    | >> and I expect many people do what I did which is get the change to
    | >> happen on the billing date therefore there were no proration issues.
    | >>
    | >>> A disntinction without a difference - just because YOU think it's
    | >>> the "right way" doesn't make it so. Verizon's system is their
    | >>> system and since it's their company, they get to make the
    | >>> rules....! I don't want to argue at all - I merely contend that the
    | >>> carping about Verizon's methods in re billing is unjustified....!
    | >>
    | >> What is so different about VZW that they can't do it the same way
    | >> as every single other similar business out there? And as a customer,
    | >> guess who ultimately pays for all those calls from people who didn't
    | >> understand or didn't pay attention? I would rather they spend my
    | >> payments on improved service, better phones, etc than on customer
    | >> support that wouldn't be necessary if billing dates hadn't been
    | >> made so complicated in the first place. You may understand just
    | >> fine, but that doesn't mean all the other new customers do.
    | >>
    | >> And while I agree with you about the competency of the VZW CSRs,
    | >> I have found that I have to call in too often because of billing
    | >> errors and that it takes (IMHO) far to much time on the phone
    | >> to resolve. Again that is customer revenue being spent on
    | >> things that aren't of any real benefit to the customer or
    | >> to VZW. (Feel free to call this paragraph sour grapes).
    | >>
    | >> Roger
    |
    |
     
  17. Idiot, read the original post. Ask what he thinks. You really must be blind.

    "Proconsul" <nospam@nospam.org> wrote in message
    news:CwNFc.9009$151.1274@fed1read02...
    >
    > "Killer Madness" <killermo@cnet.com> wrote in message
    > news:phNFc.1246$zv3.819@fe32.usenetserver.com...
    > | What's wrong with programming a fucking billing system to work honestly
    > and
    > | make NO mistakes? Why hell didn't you respond with that one? Of course

    you
    > | took the easy route and would actually stick up for a company that would
    > | over charge you and not have a care in the world about it.
    >
    > Their system is honest and you can't provide one shred of checkable

    evidence
    > to the contrary....and you especially can't support your wild contention
    > that they overcharge on purpose and don't care about it....!
    >
    > NO system is free of mistakes - if you factor in the fact that their are

    39
    > million accounts involved here, the number of mistakes is miniscule. AND,
    > let's not forget while our rage clouds our judgement, that they will
    > cheerfully fix any problem promptly....with the possible exception of

    those
    > cases where they deal with loudmouted abusive screamers....!
    >
    > Lose the attitude, forget the vulgar language and you'll do a lot

    better....
    >
    > PC
    >
    >
    >
     
  18. Idiot, read the original post. Ask what he thinks. You really must be blind.

    "Proconsul" <nospam@nospam.org> wrote in message
    news:CwNFc.9009$151.1274@fed1read02...
    >
    > "Killer Madness" <killermo@cnet.com> wrote in message
    > news:phNFc.1246$zv3.819@fe32.usenetserver.com...
    > | What's wrong with programming a fucking billing system to work honestly
    > and
    > | make NO mistakes? Why hell didn't you respond with that one? Of course

    you
    > | took the easy route and would actually stick up for a company that would
    > | over charge you and not have a care in the world about it.
    >
    > Their system is honest and you can't provide one shred of checkable

    evidence
    > to the contrary....and you especially can't support your wild contention
    > that they overcharge on purpose and don't care about it....!
    >
    > NO system is free of mistakes - if you factor in the fact that their are

    39
    > million accounts involved here, the number of mistakes is miniscule. AND,
    > let's not forget while our rage clouds our judgement, that they will
    > cheerfully fix any problem promptly....with the possible exception of

    those
    > cases where they deal with loudmouted abusive screamers....!
    >
    > Lose the attitude, forget the vulgar language and you'll do a lot

    better....
    >
    > PC
    >
    >
    >
     
  19. Idiot, read the original post. Ask what he thinks. You really must be blind.

    "Proconsul" <nospam@nospam.org> wrote in message
    news:CwNFc.9009$151.1274@fed1read02...
    >
    > "Killer Madness" <killermo@cnet.com> wrote in message
    > news:phNFc.1246$zv3.819@fe32.usenetserver.com...
    > | What's wrong with programming a fucking billing system to work honestly
    > and
    > | make NO mistakes? Why hell didn't you respond with that one? Of course

    you
    > | took the easy route and would actually stick up for a company that would
    > | over charge you and not have a care in the world about it.
    >
    > Their system is honest and you can't provide one shred of checkable

    evidence
    > to the contrary....and you especially can't support your wild contention
    > that they overcharge on purpose and don't care about it....!
    >
    > NO system is free of mistakes - if you factor in the fact that their are

    39
    > million accounts involved here, the number of mistakes is miniscule. AND,
    > let's not forget while our rage clouds our judgement, that they will
    > cheerfully fix any problem promptly....with the possible exception of

    those
    > cases where they deal with loudmouted abusive screamers....!
    >
    > Lose the attitude, forget the vulgar language and you'll do a lot

    better....
    >
    > PC
    >
    >
    >
     
  20. Idiot, read the original post. Ask what he thinks. You really must be blind.

    "Proconsul" <nospam@nospam.org> wrote in message
    news:CwNFc.9009$151.1274@fed1read02...
    >
    > "Killer Madness" <killermo@cnet.com> wrote in message
    > news:phNFc.1246$zv3.819@fe32.usenetserver.com...
    > | What's wrong with programming a fucking billing system to work honestly
    > and
    > | make NO mistakes? Why hell didn't you respond with that one? Of course

    you
    > | took the easy route and would actually stick up for a company that would
    > | over charge you and not have a care in the world about it.
    >
    > Their system is honest and you can't provide one shred of checkable

    evidence
    > to the contrary....and you especially can't support your wild contention
    > that they overcharge on purpose and don't care about it....!
    >
    > NO system is free of mistakes - if you factor in the fact that their are

    39
    > million accounts involved here, the number of mistakes is miniscule. AND,
    > let's not forget while our rage clouds our judgement, that they will
    > cheerfully fix any problem promptly....with the possible exception of

    those
    > cases where they deal with loudmouted abusive screamers....!
    >
    > Lose the attitude, forget the vulgar language and you'll do a lot

    better....
    >
    > PC
    >
    >
    >
     

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