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Verizon Wireless Fraud? BEWARE!!!

Discussion in 'alt.cellular.verizon' started by John, Jan 3, 2004.

  1. Arcy

    Arcy Guest

    "John" <jhyNOSPAM001@earthlink.net> wrote in message
    news:3FFA3D07.1010400@earthlink.net...
    > if their method is flawed, what good are the details?


    We needed the details to determine if their method is flawed or not. You
    expected us to take your word for it? Get real.

    > I don't care a whit about the $50. I just want to expose the practice. And
    > cost them as much as I can for it.


    You're going to be about as successful in doing that as we ordinary
    taxpayers are in keeping the CEO's of the big corporations from building
    multi-million dollar homes with their haul. Oh wait, maybe we should get
    *you* to expose them and make them pay it all back......

    > Debate is the practice of never understanding the flawed arguments of your
    > opponent.


    Then it's not a debate.

    Arcy
     



    › See More: Verizon Wireless Fraud? BEWARE!!!
  2. David S

    David S Guest

    On Sun, 04 Jan 2004 01:09:24 GMT, John <jhyNOSPAM001@earthlink.net> chose
    to add this to the great equation of life, the universe, and everything:

    >Dear State Attorney General (of all 50 States):
    >Dear Better Business Bureau (near the most populous 100 cities in the US):
    >Dear Consumer Reports: (a category for you to use to rank phone providers):
    >Dear FCC:
    >Dear Department of Commerce:
    >Dear FTC:
    >Dear Online Newsgroups:
    >
    >It is my opinion that Verizon Wireless is engaging in fraud.
    >
    >I recently received a US Mailing encouraging me to switch to a 400 peak
    >monthly minute plan with 1000 mobile to mobile minutes, and unlimited night
    >and weekend minutes (from a 300 peak monthly minute plan).
    >
    >They said they would prorate the phase in to the new plan.
    >
    >In the next monthly billing, I used 292 peak minutes. They somehow
    >prorated my monthly minutes at 178 (!!!) and billed me for 112 peak
    >time minutes for $ 50.40 !!!
    >
    >I don't care HOW YOU AVERAGE 300 and 400 minutes, you CANNOT get a number
    >less than 300 !!!! Unless you failed fifth grade mathematics! So this
    >is clearly a deception deliberately practiced in order to secure unfair
    >or unlawful gain. The definition of fraud I just looked up on google!


    Averaging has *nothing* to do with it.

    The way they prorate is not to average your two plans together for a total
    number of minutes for the month.

    The way they do it is to take the percentage of your billing cycle that has
    passed and give you the same percentage of your minutes for that period of
    time.

    So... they determined that for the portion of your billing cycle that had
    passed when you made the change, the proportion of 300 that you got was
    178.

    If the numbers you posted are correct, you used 290 minutes before the
    change and 2 minutes after it.

    You would have been better off waiting until the end of your cycle to make
    the change.

    Now, if you call them back and say that okay, you understand it now, but
    there wouldn't have been an overage if you had waited until the end to
    change (since you didn't go over 300 for the whole month), SO... can they
    possibly refigure it as if you had waited (and you don't even care that
    they'll charge you for that percentage of the $5 difference in the monthly
    plan rate), they just might do it.

    I just got my bill for when I made a major plan change, and at first I
    thought they were charging me again for a month I had already paid for.
    About the 3rd or 4th time I read it, I finally figured out they weren't,
    they were just charging me the difference between what I had already paid
    and what I owed for the new plan for the portion of the month for which it
    was in effect.

    Just remember, AVERAGING HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH IT.

    --
    David Streeter, "an internet god" -- Dave Barry
    http://home.att.net/~dwstreeter
    Expect a train on ANY track at ANY time.
    "You know what makes me want to puke, aside from Geraldo Rivera?"
    - Dave Barry
     
  3. David S

    David S Guest

    On Sun, 04 Jan 2004 02:03:22 GMT, JG <nospam@nospam.com> chose to add this
    to the great equation of life, the universe, and everything:

    >I think you guys are missing the point.
    >What he is saying is that if his billing cycle was on the first and he
    >switched half way through the month, he can't have less time than
    >before. It has to be more time than before. Or put it this way, if you
    >switch from a 300 minute plan half way through the month, you should get
    >150 minutes prorated from that 300 minute plan and 200 minutes from the
    >new 400 minute plan.


    This is absolutely correct... so far.

    >Thus 350 minutes should have been available during the month.


    No. The way it works is that he gets half of 300 (i.e., 150) for the first
    half of the month, and half of 400 (i.e., 200) for the second half of the
    month. But he can't add the 150 to the 200 for a total of 350. It sucks,
    but it's the way it is and it's logical and legal.

    >Yet the total monthly minutes used were 292 and only 178 were allowed.


    Using his numbers (and keeping in mind that since 178>(300/2), we're not
    talking about true halves of the month), he used 290 minutes during the
    first "half" of the month (for which they allowed him 178) and 2 minutes
    during the second "half" of the month (for which I calculate they allowed
    him (about) 161).

    (Note: if they *did* use an average, he would have gotten (about) 339
    minutes for the month.)

    --
    David Streeter, "an internet god" -- Dave Barry
    http://home.att.net/~dwstreeter
    Expect a train on ANY track at ANY time.
    "If you take sexual advantage of her, you're going to burn in a very
    special level of Hell, one they reserve for child molesters and people who
    talk at the theater." - the Reverend on 'Firefly'
     
  4. David S

    David S Guest

    On Sun, 04 Jan 2004 04:07:04 GMT, "Jack Jackson" <do@not.mail> chose to add
    this to the great equation of life, the universe, and everything:

    >I agreed with you about the minutes allocation, but I suggested that
    >the minutes used might have been accounted on an absolute basis
    >during a portion of the billing cycle -- which could indeed
    >rationally result in charges for excess minutes used. My suggestion
    >had nothing to do with the weighted average of the allocation, but
    >with the method by which the minutes used were subtracted.
    >Consider the following hypothetical equation:
    >
    >(Prorated Minutes in first 15 days - Minutes Used in first 15
    >days)+(Prorated Minutes in second 15 days - Minutes Used in second
    >15 days) = Excess Minutes Billable
    >
    >You seem to be focusing on only one element of the equation, the
    >prorated allocation(s).
    >
    >(Now I don't think my hypothetical equation reflects how Verizon
    >actually bills,


    YES IT DOES!!!!!!

    --
    David Streeter, "an internet god" -- Dave Barry
    http://home.att.net/~dwstreeter
    Expect a train on ANY track at ANY time.
    "If you ain't where you are, you're noplace." - Col. Sherman T. Potter
     
  5. David S

    David S Guest

    On Sun, 04 Jan 2004 03:26:02 GMT, "Jack Jackson" <do@not.mail> chose to add
    this to the great equation of life, the universe, and everything:

    >Is it possible that Verizon prorated the minutes allocation for each
    >segment of the billing cycle (old and new plans) but allocated the
    >minutes used within each specific segment absolutely? For example,
    >if you had used 250 minutes in the first 15 days of a 30-day billing
    >cycle on a 300-minute plan but the prorated minutes allocated for
    >that 15-day segment were 150, Verizon might argue that you were 100
    >minutes over allocation for that 15 day period -- regardless of your
    >usage and minutes allocation in the second segment of the cycle. I
    >doubt that is the way the system works, but it would explain how


    YES IT IS!!!!!!

    >this billing problem could happen. Of course, you're right that the
    >monthly proration cannot be less than the lower minutes of the two
    >plans, but it may be that Verizon's usage accounting is simply
    >calendar based.


    --
    David Streeter, "an internet god" -- Dave Barry
    http://home.att.net/~dwstreeter
    Expect a train on ANY track at ANY time.
    "Five card stud, nothing wild, and the sky's the limit." - Capt. Jean-Luc
    Picard, the last line of ST:TNG
     
  6. David S

    David S Guest

    On Sun, 04 Jan 2004 04:43:20 GMT, John <jhyNOSPAM001@earthlink.net> chose
    to add this to the great equation of life, the universe, and everything:

    >ah, but I was 100% compliant until their 100% stupidity ruled, after
    >many many explaations of how 300 and 400 cannot ever average less than
    >300.......... unless FRAUD is involved!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


    Or unless an average ISN'T involved.

    --
    David Streeter, "an internet god" -- Dave Barry
    http://home.att.net/~dwstreeter
    Expect a train on ANY track at ANY time.
    "I'd get real close to him and breathe on his goggles."
    - Johhny "Red" Kerr, on how he'd guard Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
     
  7. David S

    David S Guest

    On Sun, 04 Jan 2004 05:43:40 GMT, "Dr. Know" <send_no_spam@earthlink.net>
    chose to add this to the great equation of life, the universe, and
    everything:

    >OK freakin' Heywire, try this for math, asshole.
    >
    >Your plan bills from first of month to first of month. You change plans from 300
    >to 400 minutes on the 18th.
    >
    >You are allowed 18/30ths of the 300 minutes for the "first portion" of the plan,
    >or 180 minutes. Oh, but you had diarrhea of the mouth those 18 days, talking to
    >all your Nobel friends (and Clinton & Bush too!) and used ALL 292 minutes those
    >first 18 days!!!!
    >
    >You went 112 minutes over your "pro-rated" allotment, buttwipe!


    CORRECT!!!

    >You then spent the next 12 days of the month in the electro-shock therapy unit
    >here at Greystone under the supervision of Dr. Feelgood and myself, and we had
    >to take anything with sharp edges away from you, thus you used NO MINUTES during
    >that time. Of course you were TOO SEDATED to remember any of this.


    Obviously.

    --
    David Streeter, "an internet god" -- Dave Barry
    http://home.att.net/~dwstreeter
    Expect a train on ANY track at ANY time.
    "Say, aren't you leaving a hole in the middle of some soggy group hug?"
    - Spike to Buffy
     
  8. David S

    David S Guest

    On Sat, 03 Jan 2004 23:15:38 -0500, Jeffrey Kaplan <acv@gordol.org> chose
    to add this to the great equation of life, the universe, and everything:

    >Previously on alt.cellular.verizon, JG said:
    >
    >; I think you guys are missing the point.
    >; What he is saying is that if his billing cycle was on the first and he
    >; switched half way through the month, he can't have less time than
    >; before. It has to be more time than before. Or put it this way, if you
    >; switch from a 300 minute plan half way through the month, you should get
    >; 150 minutes prorated from that 300 minute plan and 200 minutes from the
    >; new 400 minute plan.
    >; Thus 350 minutes should have been available during the month.
    >; Yet the total monthly minutes used were 292 and only 178 were allowed.
    >
    >No. When you change plans, your old plan has nothing further to do
    >with how much airtime you have. You get however much your NEW plan
    >provides, prorated to how many days are left in your billing cycle.


    Yes, and for the number of days before you changed, you get a prorate of
    the minutes in your old plan.

    >Why would you expect your OLD plan to have anything to do with your NEW
    >plan?


    I wouldn't. But I WOULD expect it to have *everything* to do with how many
    minutes I'd used before I changed the plan.

    --
    David Streeter, "an internet god" -- Dave Barry
    http://home.att.net/~dwstreeter
    Expect a train on ANY track at ANY time.
    "Willie Mays won't start today because the Mets' regular outfielder Rusty
    Slob will be playing." - Curt Gowdy, covering the 1973 World Series
     
  9. David S

    David S Guest

    On Sun, 04 Jan 2004 04:19:28 GMT, John <jhyNOSPAM001@earthlink.net> chose
    to add this to the great equation of life, the universe, and everything:

    <improper top-posting corrected>

    >Jeffrey Kaplan wrote:
    >> Previously on alt.cellular.verizon, JG said:
    >>
    >> ; I think you guys are missing the point.
    >> ; What he is saying is that if his billing cycle was on the first and he
    >> ; switched half way through the month, he can't have less time than
    >> ; before. It has to be more time than before. Or put it this way, if you
    >> ; switch from a 300 minute plan half way through the month, you should get
    >> ; 150 minutes prorated from that 300 minute plan and 200 minutes from the
    >> ; new 400 minute plan.
    >> ; Thus 350 minutes should have been available during the month.
    >> ; Yet the total monthly minutes used were 292 and only 178 were allowed.
    >>
    >> No. When you change plans, your old plan has nothing further to do
    >> with how much airtime you have. You get however much your NEW plan
    >> provides, prorated to how many days are left in your billing cycle.
    >>
    >> Why would you expect your OLD plan to have anything to do with your NEW
    >> plan?
    >>

    >jeez... you are a stupid bunch aren't you!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    >
    >did you graduate special education!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    >
    >there are TWO plans. the old 300 plan. and the new 400 plan
    >
    >sigh........... you are stupid aren't you!!!!!!!!!!!!1


    Well, gee, he agreed with you and you still called him stupid.

    However, this post is the closest you've come to really understanding what
    happened.

    You terminated your 300 plan after 18 days. They prorated your minute
    allowance for those 18 days to 18 1/30ths of 300, or 178. Since you had
    already used 290 minutes, they charged you for 112.

    All of that has *nothing* to do with, and is not affected by, the fact that
    you started a new 400 plan and were given 12 1/30ths of 400 (160) minutes
    for the 12 days until your next billing date.

    --
    David Streeter, "an internet god" -- Dave Barry
    http://home.att.net/~dwstreeter
    Expect a train on ANY track at ANY time.
    "You're trembling, son. Are you scared?" - Col. Potter
    "No sir. Just cold." - Soldier on his first night as sentry
    "You had any brains, you'd be scared." - Col. Potter
     
  10. David S

    David S Guest

    On Sun, 04 Jan 2004 04:25:15 GMT, Bill Rubin <billrubin@prodigy.net> chose
    to add this to the great equation of life, the universe, and everything:

    >Jeffrey Kaplan wrote:
    >>
    >> Previously on alt.cellular.verizon, JG said:
    >>
    >> ; I think you guys are missing the point.
    >> ; What he is saying is that if his billing cycle was on the first and he
    >> ; switched half way through the month, he can't have less time than
    >> ; before. It has to be more time than before. Or put it this way, if you
    >> ; switch from a 300 minute plan half way through the month, you should get
    >> ; 150 minutes prorated from that 300 minute plan and 200 minutes from the
    >> ; new 400 minute plan.
    >> ; Thus 350 minutes should have been available during the month.
    >> ; Yet the total monthly minutes used were 292 and only 178 were allowed.
    >>
    >> No. When you change plans, your old plan has nothing further to do
    >> with how much airtime you have. You get however much your NEW plan
    >> provides, prorated to how many days are left in your billing cycle.
    >>
    >> Why would you expect your OLD plan to have anything to do with your NEW
    >> plan?

    >
    >You know I was sort of agreeing with you, but not I think you're
    >totally off base. Are you saying that if I have a 300 minute
    >plan and switch halfway through the month to a 400 minute plan,
    >that all I should expect to be allowed on my full month bill is
    >200 minutes, and that the number of minutes you had been allowed
    >on your old plan no longer apply? That makes absolutely no


    You're right, that's incorrect.

    >sense. The best case you can make is that they split the bill by
    >plan, and they list all of the calls made before the switchover
    >with a prorated amount of minutes from the old plan, and the
    >same for the new plan.


    Which is exactly what they do.

    --
    David Streeter, "an internet god" -- Dave Barry
    http://home.att.net/~dwstreeter
    Expect a train on ANY track at ANY time.
    "If I were Human, I believe my response would be 'Go to hell.' If I were
    Human." - Spock, Star Trek VI
    "Captain, I believe I speak for everyone here when I say... 'to hell with
    our orders.'" - Data, Star Trek VIII
     
  11. ileen

    ileen Guest

    "John" <jhyNOSPAM001@earthlink.net> wrote in message
    news:3FFA3C06.7070504@earthlink.net...
    > a) and miss the fun of intimidation? more than worth the $50.
    >
    > b) take a number and wait in line for half an hour?



    OK, John, you lost me. On the one hand you say one of your goals was to
    educate other customers (I believe you said that somewhere), yet on the
    other you seem hell bent on being rude to the very people you claim to want
    to help.

    Also, who exactly are you trying to intimidate? Verizon? That's funny.
    What's the worst that can happen to them, a class action suit? That only
    works in their favor: they'll give their customers $20 gift certificates to
    use towards over-priced accessories or to extend their contracts. Two more
    ways for them to make even more money. And even if you were in the least
    intimidating, why would you find it fun?

    Lastly, why are you opposed to waiting in line for half an hour? You seem
    to have plenty of time on your hands for far less constructive pursuits!

    Ileen
     
  12. ileen

    ileen Guest

    "Giambi" <byegiambi2WINNER@hotmail.com> wrote
    >
    > You don't actually _pay_ "in advance" to the extent you've suggested.
    > Instead, you are _billed_ in advance


    Yes, you're right of course. My point is that you agree per contract to pay
    a certain amount for a certain amount of minutes for the entire month. No
    one tells you at that time that if you upgrade your month gets cut-off. If
    no one mentions it when the plan is upgraded, how are you supposed to just
    "know." It irks me when people act like it's simple logic and intuition --
    that any reasonable person should understand what Verizon means when they
    say "prorate." Reasonable would be what I described in the post you're
    responding to. Being charged over-age when you haven't used more minutes
    than EITHER plan simply isn't reasonable!


    > The key is all in how you approach it and how you act
    > towards said rep.


    I see your point but I don't think it should be left to the customers to
    play nice with the rep after Verizon overcharges their customers. Verizon
    should have a method of pro-rating that doesn't cause this ridiculous
    problem in the first place. They should also have policies and procedures
    in place that make it abundantly clear to the customer exactly what
    upgrading a plan will entail. They should enforce these procedures.

    > You can see for yourself just how well John's approach
    > (arrogant while uncomprehending) works out as an alternative.


    Agreed.

    Ileen
     
  13. Justin

    Justin Guest

    ileen wrote on [Tue, 06 Jan 2004 15:22:04 GMT]:
    >
    > "Giambi" <byegiambi2WINNER@hotmail.com> wrote
    >> The key is all in how you approach it and how you act
    >> towards said rep.

    >
    > I see your point but I don't think it should be left to the customers to
    > play nice with the rep after Verizon overcharges their customers. Verizon
    > should have a method of pro-rating that doesn't cause this ridiculous
    > problem in the first place. They should also have policies and procedures
    > in place that make it abundantly clear to the customer exactly what
    > upgrading a plan will entail. They should enforce these procedures.


    Wanna bet that the CSR explained the proration to "John" and he just
    ignored what they were telling him at the time? Or conveniently forgot
    it?

    I get the impression he did it all over the phone.
     
  14. On Tue, 06 Jan 2004 15:11:57 GMT, "ileen"
    <ileen@maine.abbreviationforroadrunner.com> wrote:

    >Lastly, why are you opposed to waiting in line for half an hour? You seem
    >to have plenty of time on your hands for far less constructive pursuits!


    Please, don't go throwing logic at him. He might have a stroke. Oh,
    wait. Go ahead.:)
     
  15. John <jhyNOSPAM001@earthlink.net> wrote in message news:<3FFA1892.20601@earthlink.net>...
    SNIP
    > And yes, I bought H&R Block's Tax package this year because Turbo Tax DID
    > install a spyware package without warning or consent and did not allow free
    > downloads of state tax last year. If you used TurboTax last year and did not
    > download and run a spyware remover, you HAVE spyware on your system courtesy
    > of Turbo Tax. check it out. I leave this as an end user exercise.

    SNIP

    This much I can vouch for, because I experienced it myself. That
    c-dilla protection program was very hard to get rid of. I'm not
    familiar with HRBlock's package. Is it also software that you have to
    activate? Because if so, I'd beware of it as well. I decided to switch
    to TaxBrain this year because it's all on line, and I won't have to
    buy or activate software. It just seems safer to me at this point.
    QM
     
  16. On 6 Jan 2004 11:29:09 -0800, mightyquinn12002@yahoo.com (Quincy
    Munroe) wrote:

    >This much I can vouch for, because I experienced it myself. That
    >c-dilla protection program was very hard to get rid of. I'm not
    >familiar with HRBlock's package. Is it also software that you have to
    >activate? Because if so, I'd beware of it as well. I decided to switch
    >to TaxBrain this year because it's all on line, and I won't have to
    >buy or activate software. It just seems safer to me at this point.
    >QM


    Intuit received ALOT of negative feedback about the c-dilla crap on
    the machines. They promised not to do something like that again in
    the future and that it would not be there for TT2003.


    Tom Veldhouse
     
  17. Gordy

    Gordy Guest

    John, You are a total moronic asshole. And I am trying to be kind.
     
  18. Evan Platt

    Evan Platt Guest

    On Tue, 06 Jan 2004 02:08:26 GMT, John <jhyNOSPAM001@earthlink.net>
    wrote:

    >My sole purpose in posting was to expose this practice and in so doing get
    >them to change it! or cost them customers. the more eyes that see it the better.


    The only thing you've exposed is that you don't listen to people and
    you don't understand what 'prorate' means.

    Everyone else here seems to get it. You aren't exposing anything.
    Except that you don't listen, and don't read.

    >Ileen "gets it" (and a couple of others) and I didn't know I had to "dumb
    >down" the description for the message to get through.


    After talking with you, we're all feeling a little dumb. Dumb for the
    fact that science has no way to prevent people like you from breeding.

    >What is right is right. And in this case what is right is a number of minutes
    >between 300 and 400. no other explanation is required. They contacted me by US
    >Mail to UPGRADE!


    OOOooohh! You didn't mention that they contacted you by US MAIL! That
    changes everything!

    >It *is* a deceptive practice. it is a practice that causes VZW excess gain.
    >that is the definition of "fraud". I wasn't sure it was fraud until I looked
    >up its specific definition, and it fits perfectly so I have no reservation in
    >calling it that!


    Uhh EVERY carrier pro-rates. You've got a long battle ahead of you.

    Fraud:
    1 A deception deliberately practiced in order to secure unfair or
    unlawful gain.
    2 A piece of trickery; a trick.

    The terms of proration are spelled out in the contract you signed.

    >I received no written summary nor warning that I would have less minutes than
    >either plan. That is so illogical it is ridiculous to even consider!


    You agreed to it when you signed your initial contract.


    > In fact, I am going to spend far more than the $50 on US Mail to Attorneys
    > General, BBBs, etc. as I indicated in my first post.


    Oh god. Your letter will I'm sure go straight to their wall of shame
    for employees to laugh at.

    $50 on stamps? That's 135 stamps. Have fun.

    >I have the addresses of several hundred BBBs across the country if
    >anyone wants the list.


    We have better things to do with our lives than sue because of our
    ignorance.

    >I did put the case in with VZW on their customer (dis)service page. They
    >finally responded today with the fact that I would have a response in 8 hours.
    >I am waiting. If the timestamps are correct for our time zone, they have two
    >more hours.


    And if you were nice, you may see results.

    >And yes, I bought H&R Block's Tax package this year because Turbo Tax DID
    >install a spyware package without warning or consent and did not allow free
    >downloads of state tax last year.


    Remember during the install, that page that says "By clicking on 'I
    Agree', you agree to the following terms and conditions:" Did you read
    that or did you just skip through it?

    >I'm sorry for being so irate when a deep pockets corporation decides to rip
    >off its unsuspecting customers.


    Being irate is fine. Being ignorant is something else.

    You are now an annoying ignorant troll.
    To reply, remove TheObvious from my e-mail address.
     
  19. Justin

    Justin Guest

    Evan Platt wrote on [Tue, 06 Jan 2004 19:27:14 -0800]:
    > On Tue, 06 Jan 2004 02:08:26 GMT, John <jhyNOSPAM001@earthlink.net>
    > wrote:
    >
    >>Ileen "gets it" (and a couple of others) and I didn't know I had to "dumb
    >>down" the description for the message to get through.

    >
    > After talking with you, we're all feeling a little dumb. Dumb for the
    > fact that science has no way to prevent people like you from breeding.


    Maybe some of his Nobel Laureate friends have already solved this little
    problem.
     
  20. "Justin" <nospam@insightbb.com> wrote in message
    news:slrnbvmvkm.ckl.nospam@debian.dns2go.com...
    > Evan Platt wrote on [Tue, 06 Jan 2004 19:27:14 -0800]:
    > > On Tue, 06 Jan 2004 02:08:26 GMT, John <jhyNOSPAM001@earthlink.net>
    > > wrote:
    > >
    > >>Ileen "gets it" (and a couple of others) and I didn't know I had to

    "dumb
    > >>down" the description for the message to get through.

    > >
    > > After talking with you, we're all feeling a little dumb. Dumb for the
    > > fact that science has no way to prevent people like you from breeding.

    >
    > Maybe some of his Nobel Laureate friends have already solved this little
    > problem.
    >


    So, if a moron posts 'dumbed down' , does that make him an imbecile?

    And I think he had Laureates confused with Laurel and Hardy.
     

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