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Verizon Wireless Fraud? BEWARE!!!

Discussion in 'alt.cellular.verizon' started by John, Jan 3, 2004.

  1. Evan Platt

    Evan Platt Guest

    On Sun, 04 Jan 2004 22:15:08 GMT, "ileen"
    <ileen@maine.abbreviationforroadrunner.com> wrote:

    >Verizon CS reps are supposed to CLEARLY spell out to customers EXACTLY what
    >"pro-rate" means. They are supposed to give you a written print-out that
    >tells you how many minutes you will have on your old plan and how many on
    >your new plan when you switch mid-cycle. If they do not provide this
    >information, they are at fault.


    And how are they to provide this written print out?

    To reply, remove TheObvious from my e-mail address.



    › See More: Verizon Wireless Fraud? BEWARE!!!
  2. On Mon, 05 Jan 2004 04:26:17 GMT, "ileen"
    <ileen@maine.abbreviationforroadrunner.com> wrote:

    >Like John, I too would have been extremely angry if pro-ration had not been
    >explained to me and I ended up being charged for over-age when my total
    >usage was less than what I signed for on either plan. Calling this fraud is
    >only over-the-top if, when the customer complains, Verizon apologizes for
    >not providing the proper information and rescinds the charges. Otherwise,
    >IT IS FRAUD, plain and simple.


    I don't know if I (or a court) would call it fraud, but you do have a
    point. And you have one thing John doesn't; the ability to lay out
    your problem in specific detail, in a rational manner, and without
    making nonsensical threats and demands. Kudos! John could learn a
    lesson from you.:)
  3. ShackAttack

    ShackAttack Guest

    Wow....I cannot believe I just read all these posts in one sitting. That's
    about 30 minutes of my life I would like back. There are lots of idiots in
    the world, and we have all seen a name put to one of them. I will not try
    and explain the definition of "pro-rate" or of "average", it would just fall
    on deaf ears. I will offer this to the group.

    I live in the Midwest, and work for an Authorized Agent of VZW. I see 20-30
    billing statements a month and thus have, I believie, an adequate grasp of
    the VZW billing system.

    In the past, when you changed your plan it was retroactive to the first day
    of your billing cycle. Currently, the prorated system which so many have
    tried to explain to John was put in to place. This was changed in my area
    to conside / requied by the new billing system refered to as I2K. Let me
    make this clear to any who would have been clouded by the idiot. When you
    change your plan, you will have your bill prorated on a 30 day cycle. If
    your 1/4 into your cycle and change the plan (up or down in peak minutes)
    you will only be alloughted 1/4 of your "old" plans peak minutes for the
    first 1/4 of your bill cycle. Simple. Fair. Efficient.

    While I have designed a spreadsheet to assist me (ask and I will send one to
    you one in MS Excel) I know for fact, that CS dosen't always explain the
    process in depth . Now I don't know if its their fault for not explaining
    or if it's the customers fault for not asking, you decide. I will offer
    this advise. When calling your credit card/cable/dish/internet/cell phone
    provider and make changes to your account of any type ASK these 3 questions.
    What can I expect to see on my next billing? I know I did this and this,
    what other changes are made to my account today? If there is a problem, can
    I get your name and extension to call back? Ask and you will be amazed!

    ShackAttack
  4. ShackAttack <shackattack6089@nospam.yahoo.com> wrote:
    > this advise. When calling your credit card/cable/dish/internet/cell phone
    > provider and make changes to your account of any type ASK these 3 questions.
    > What can I expect to see on my next billing? I know I did this and this,
    > what other changes are made to my account today? If there is a problem, can
    > I get your name and extension to call back? Ask and you will be amazed!


    Excellent, excellent advice.

    --
    JustThe.net Internet & New Media Services
    22674 Motnocab Road * Apple Valley, CA 92307-1950
    Steve Sobol, Geek In Charge * 888.480.4NET (4638) * sjsobol@JustThe.net
  5. Andy S

    Andy S Guest

    > > "Evan Platt" <evan@TheObvious.espphotography.com> wrote in message
    > > news:amqgvvcjjfv2ksg2qfru4auc339d6mcvih@4ax.com...
    > > On Sun, 04 Jan 2004 03:44:24 GMT, John <jhyNOSPAM001@earthlink.net>
    > > wrote:
    > >
    > > >I've been on a first name basis with 15 to 20 Natural Science Nobel

    prize
    > > >winners over the past 30 years. I'm not ashamed to admit I don't know
    > > >something less than their work.

    > >
    > > <Hands John a cookie.>

    > "Scott Stephenson" <scott.stephensonson@adelphia.net>
    > wrote in message news:b_ZJb.1381$yW1.1193073@news2.news.adelphia.net...
    > Cookie or teething biscuit?
    >
    >

    Maybe some cheese to go with the whine.


    --
    Andrew D. Sisson
  6. ileen

    ileen Guest

    "ShackAttack" <shackattack6089@nospam.yahoo.com> wrote
    > When you
    > change your plan, you will have your bill prorated on a 30 day cycle. If
    > your 1/4 into your cycle and change the plan (up or down in peak minutes)
    > you will only be alloughted 1/4 of your "old" plans peak minutes for the
    > first 1/4 of your bill cycle. Simple. Fair. Efficient.


    Yes, that's the way it's done and it may be efficient -- it may even be
    considered "simple" if it is explained properly -- but I would hardly call
    it fair.

    When a customer signs on for a new plan, they pay X amount of dollars *in
    advance* for a certain amount of minutes. On the first bill, you get
    pro-rated for any portion of the first month and you also pay for the
    *entire* next month *in advance*. Nowhere does it say that if you upgrade
    your plan will you will not be able to use all the minutes that you paid
    for, um, did I mention IN ADVANCE?

    So, for example, if you paid for 300 minutes that you are supposed to be
    able to use anytime during the coming month (and nowhere is it written that
    you should use your minutes "proportionally" to the number of days in the
    month) and then you upgrade 20 days later to a higher plan it is possible
    that you will end up with less than 300 usable minutes. Suppose you only
    used 30 minutes in 2/3 of the month. Then you upgrade to, say, 400 minutes.
    Pro-rating the Verizon way gives you an allotment of only 163 minutes for
    the entire month. (30 minutes used plus 400*10/30 = 163.) Therefore, you
    are PAYING for two-thirds of a month of a 300 minute plan and one third of a
    month of a 400 minute plan and yet only being allotted 163 minutes -- even
    though you paid for *300* minutes, IN ADVANCE! How on earth do you
    consider this FAIR?

    Here's fair:

    a.) Going back to the old way and making upgrades retro-active to the start
    of the billing cycle.

    b.) Instituting a fair formula for prorationing by allowing the customer to
    use ALL of the minutes that they paid for, yes, in f*king advance, for the
    entire month instead of making the upgrade date a cut-off date. Allotted
    minutes for *entire* month should equal a proportional amount of minutes
    from first plan plus a proportional amount of minutes from upgraded plan --
    to be used at ANYTIME during the month. In the example above it would work
    like this: 300 minutes * 2/3 month = 200 minutes, plus 400 minutes * 1/3
    month = 133 minutes, for a total of 333 minutes for that first month. See
    how the total number of minutes nicely falls between the allotment of the
    two plans yet takes into account the porportionality of when in the month
    the change in plans went into effect? Now that would be very efficient,
    even simpler, and most importantly FAIR.

    Ileen
  7. John

    John Guest

    [sorry for the delay... a busy life must be compartmentalized]

    My sole purpose in posting was to expose this practice and in so doing get
    them to change it! or cost them customers. the more eyes that see it the better.

    Ileen "gets it" (and a couple of others) and I didn't know I had to "dumb
    down" the description for the message to get through.

    What is right is right. And in this case what is right is a number of minutes
    between 300 and 400. no other explanation is required. They contacted me by US
    Mail to UPGRADE!

    It *is* a deceptive practice. it is a practice that causes VZW excess gain.
    that is the definition of "fraud". I wasn't sure it was fraud until I looked
    up its specific definition, and it fits perfectly so I have no reservation in
    calling it that!

    I received no written summary nor warning that I would have less minutes than
    either plan. That is so illogical it is ridiculous to even consider!

    I have no intention of personally profiting from this, I have enough money. I
    would like to see VZW lose millions to lawyers for such a practice. But is is
    the PRINCIPLE that they are so arrogant to rip off their customers this way!
    To me, that is over the top! In fact, I am going to spend far more than the
    $50 on US Mail to Attorneys General, BBBs, etc. as I indicated in my first
    post. I have the addresses of several hundred BBBs across the country if
    anyone wants the list.

    I did put the case in with VZW on their customer (dis)service page. They
    finally responded today with the fact that I would have a response in 8 hours.
    I am waiting. If the timestamps are correct for our time zone, they have two
    more hours.

    And yes, I bought H&R Block's Tax package this year because Turbo Tax DID
    install a spyware package without warning or consent and did not allow free
    downloads of state tax last year. If you used TurboTax last year and did not
    download and run a spyware remover, you HAVE spyware on your system courtesy
    of Turbo Tax. check it out. I leave this as an end user exercise.

    I'm sorry for being so irate when a deep pockets corporation decides to rip
    off its unsuspecting customers. that includes you too. It isn't about the $50.
    I spend more than that on a dinner. If you notice, the issues that I get up on
    my soapbox about are when some coproration pulls a really boneheaded stunt. I
    am an advocate for the consumer. Being a Casper Milque (sp?) Toast in this
    area buys nothing. Being over the top gives a calculated psychological advantage.

    Back to your regular programming...

    John

    ileen wrote:
    > "ShackAttack" <shackattack6089@nospam.yahoo.com> wrote
    >
    >>When you
    >>change your plan, you will have your bill prorated on a 30 day cycle. If
    >>your 1/4 into your cycle and change the plan (up or down in peak minutes)
    >>you will only be alloughted 1/4 of your "old" plans peak minutes for the
    >>first 1/4 of your bill cycle. Simple. Fair. Efficient.

    >
    >
    > Yes, that's the way it's done and it may be efficient -- it may even be
    > considered "simple" if it is explained properly -- but I would hardly call
    > it fair.
    >
    > When a customer signs on for a new plan, they pay X amount of dollars *in
    > advance* for a certain amount of minutes. On the first bill, you get
    > pro-rated for any portion of the first month and you also pay for the
    > *entire* next month *in advance*. Nowhere does it say that if you upgrade
    > your plan will you will not be able to use all the minutes that you paid
    > for, um, did I mention IN ADVANCE?
    >
    > So, for example, if you paid for 300 minutes that you are supposed to be
    > able to use anytime during the coming month (and nowhere is it written that
    > you should use your minutes "proportionally" to the number of days in the
    > month) and then you upgrade 20 days later to a higher plan it is possible
    > that you will end up with less than 300 usable minutes. Suppose you only
    > used 30 minutes in 2/3 of the month. Then you upgrade to, say, 400 minutes.
    > Pro-rating the Verizon way gives you an allotment of only 163 minutes for
    > the entire month. (30 minutes used plus 400*10/30 = 163.) Therefore, you
    > are PAYING for two-thirds of a month of a 300 minute plan and one third of a
    > month of a 400 minute plan and yet only being allotted 163 minutes -- even
    > though you paid for *300* minutes, IN ADVANCE! How on earth do you
    > consider this FAIR?
    >
    > Here's fair:
    >
    > a.) Going back to the old way and making upgrades retro-active to the start
    > of the billing cycle.
    >
    > b.) Instituting a fair formula for prorationing by allowing the customer to
    > use ALL of the minutes that they paid for, yes, in f*king advance, for the
    > entire month instead of making the upgrade date a cut-off date. Allotted
    > minutes for *entire* month should equal a proportional amount of minutes
    > from first plan plus a proportional amount of minutes from upgraded plan --
    > to be used at ANYTIME during the month. In the example above it would work
    > like this: 300 minutes * 2/3 month = 200 minutes, plus 400 minutes * 1/3
    > month = 133 minutes, for a total of 333 minutes for that first month. See
    > how the total number of minutes nicely falls between the allotment of the
    > two plans yet takes into account the porportionality of when in the month
    > the change in plans went into effect? Now that would be very efficient,
    > even simpler, and most importantly FAIR.
    >
    > Ileen
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
  8. Justin

    Justin Guest

    John wrote on [Tue, 06 Jan 2004 02:08:26 GMT]:
    > [sorry for the delay... a busy life must be compartmentalized]
    >
    > My sole purpose in posting was to expose this practice and in so doing get
    > them to change it! or cost them customers. the more eyes that see it the better.
    >
    > Ileen "gets it" (and a couple of others) and I didn't know I had to "dumb
    > down" the description for the message to get through.
    >
    > What is right is right. And in this case what is right is a number of minutes
    > between 300 and 400. no other explanation is required. They contacted me by US
    > Mail to UPGRADE!


    Wow. You sound almost intelligent here.
  9. John

    John Guest

    I am a detached actor at the core. I adapt the persona that I feel gets the
    job done in the way I want and don't look back nor apologize. I enjoy the
    reactions that I see. Isn't Psychology a wonderful thing! I'm glad I minored
    in it! I am consistent and tenacious about issues. This job is far from done.
    Only a few people will understand this in the way it is intended.

    John

    Justin wrote:
    > John wrote on [Tue, 06 Jan 2004 02:08:26 GMT]:
    >
    >>[sorry for the delay... a busy life must be compartmentalized]
    >>
    >>My sole purpose in posting was to expose this practice and in so doing get
    >>them to change it! or cost them customers. the more eyes that see it the better.
    >>
    >>Ileen "gets it" (and a couple of others) and I didn't know I had to "dumb
    >>down" the description for the message to get through.
    >>
    >>What is right is right. And in this case what is right is a number of minutes
    >>between 300 and 400. no other explanation is required. They contacted me by US
    >>Mail to UPGRADE!

    >
    >
    > Wow. You sound almost intelligent here.
  10. John

    John Guest

    ok, let me do this analogy for you.

    You have a vacation plan that give you 3 weeks of vacation and all of it is
    outstanding. A new plan comes along that will give you 4 weeks of vacation if
    you respond to the upgrade letter.

    You do respond in the affirmative.

    You then get a letter saying thank you for the upgrade and we have prorated
    your vacation and you now have only 1 week of vacation to use this year. Thank
    you for upgrading.

    I am so glad you endorse this method of prorated computation. I cannot.

    John

    Arcy wrote:
    > "John" <jhyNOSPAM001@earthlink.net> wrote in message
    > news:3FFA1892.20601@earthlink.net...
    >
    >>[sorry for the delay... a busy life must be compartmentalized]
    >>
    >>My sole purpose in posting was to expose this practice and in so doing get
    >>them to change it! or cost them customers. the more eyes that see it the

    >
    > better.
    >
    >>Ileen "gets it" (and a couple of others) and I didn't know I had to "dumb
    >>down" the description for the message to get through.

    >
    >
    > Ileen gets it (and so do others) but not in the way that you, John, "got
    > it". Ileen understands prorating whereas nowhere in your 58 posts did you
    > indicate you understood prorating. You only kept screaming: "....there is no
    > mathematical basis for any averaging between 300 and 400 that is less than
    > 300!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"
    >
    > And as for "dumbing down" any message, gee whiz - can you possibly get any
    > dumber than this?
    >
    > I won't even state my opinion on your rants about making millions on these
    > lawsuits.
    >
    > Arcy
    >
    >
  11. Steve Crow

    Steve Crow Guest

    The prorating makes perfect sense to anyone who made it through high
    school, and is standard practice with most any service which bills on a
    monthly basis.

    Let's say your bill cycle date is the 1st of each month. You were on a
    300-minute plan. Prorating assumes a 30-day month. If you make a change on
    the 17th day of the month, you would be permitted 170 minutes for the
    period running the 1st through the 17th. If you had used 200 minutes when
    you made the change, you are already 30 minutes over, and will be billed
    accordingly.

    For the new price plan, the period running from the 17th to the 30th, you
    would be allowed 173 minutes. Anything beyond that would be over your
    allowance and again billed accordingly.

    Finally, yes, you indeed CAN go over your minutes if you make a price plan
    change mid-cycle and have not used your minutes in the smaller of the two
    packages. In the example above, changing plans on the 17th day of your
    bill cycle, if you had already used your 300 minutes, you would be 130
    minutes over your allowance.

    Note that the same prorating is applied whenever you change plans,
    regardless of whether there is a change in the monthly recurring charge,
    minutes, or just included features.

    Every time I've ever made a price plan change over the phone, the rep has
    cautioned about prorating, and some have offered to make the change
    effective at the beginning of my next billing cycle, so as to avoid
    problems.

    To sum it up, I find nothing illegal about the circumstances. Seems like
    you simply made a lot of flawed assumptions about the way you would be
    billed.

    Steve

    On Sun, 4 Jan 2004, John wrote:

    > Dear State Attorney General (of all 50 States):
    > Dear Better Business Bureau (near the most populous 100 cities in the US):
    > Dear Consumer Reports: (a category for you to use to rank phone providers):
    > Dear FCC:
    > Dear Department of Commerce:
    > Dear FTC:
    > Dear Online Newsgroups:
    >
    > It is my opinion that Verizon Wireless is engaging in fraud.
    >
    > I recently received a US Mailing encouraging me to switch to a 400 peak
    > monthly minute plan with 1000 mobile to mobile minutes, and unlimited night
    > and weekend minutes (from a 300 peak monthly minute plan).
    >
    > They said they would prorate the phase in to the new plan.
    >
    > In the next monthly billing, I used 292 peak minutes. They somehow
    > prorated my monthly minutes at 178 (!!!) and billed me for 112 peak
    > time minutes for $ 50.40 !!!
    >
    > I don't care HOW YOU AVERAGE 300 and 400 minutes, you CANNOT get a number
    > less than 300 !!!! Unless you failed fifth grade mathematics! So this
    > is clearly a deception deliberately practiced in order to secure unfair
    > or unlawful gain. The definition of fraud I just looked up on google!
    >
    > I called and complained (someone named Cattrell). They refused to refund
    > my money and to even admit that it was fraud!
    >
    > I don't care much about the money. It is now the principle of it. And
    > the fact that they are ripping off people all across the nation with the
    > same deceptive practice, and I feel it must not only be stopped, they need
    > to be made accountable for every instance of it.
    >
    > I assume that a class action suit and investigation will ensue and return
    > the money to all those who have been ripped off in this manner, and with a
    > substantial multimillon dollar amount of punitive damages to discourage
    > such practices in the future.
    >
    > I look forward to hearing from you that action is being taken. Any lawyer
    > or agent of the law wishing to pursue this case may contact me for complete
    > details.
    >
    > Sincerely,
    >
    > John
    >
    >
  12. Steve Crow

    Steve Crow Guest

    Nope, YOU are missing the point. It depends on when the minutes were used.
    The prorated allowance from the first portion of the billing cycle (before
    the plan change) will NOT carry over to the second portion. That defeats
    the purpose of prorating.

    Steve


    On Sun, 4 Jan 2004, JG wrote:

    > I think you guys are missing the point.
    > What he is saying is that if his billing cycle was on the first and he
    > switched half way through the month, he can't have less time than
    > before. It has to be more time than before. Or put it this way, if you
    > switch from a 300 minute plan half way through the month, you should get
    > 150 minutes prorated from that 300 minute plan and 200 minutes from the
    > new 400 minute plan.
    > Thus 350 minutes should have been available during the month.
    > Yet the total monthly minutes used were 292 and only 178 were allowed.
    >
    > HomieG wrote:
    > > Hmmm, you expect them to take you seriously when your math doesn't add up?
    > > You say they billed you for 292 peak minutes, 178 pro-rated and 112 peak.
    > > That equals 290 minutes.
    > > If you didn't understand the pro-rate at the time of agreeing to the plan,
    > > you should have asked then.
    > > Sorry, they are not going to take you seriosly. More a case of ready,
    > > shoot, aim...
    > > -HomieG
    > >
    > >
    > > "John" <jhyNOSPAM001@earthlink.net> wrote in message
    > > news:3FF767BD.6030206@earthlink.net...
    > >
    > >>Dear State Attorney General (of all 50 States):
    > >>Dear Better Business Bureau (near the most populous 100 cities in the US):
    > >>Dear Consumer Reports: (a category for you to use to rank phone

    > >
    > > providers):
    > >
    > >>Dear FCC:
    > >>Dear Department of Commerce:
    > >>Dear FTC:
    > >>Dear Online Newsgroups:
    > >>
    > >>It is my opinion that Verizon Wireless is engaging in fraud.
    > >>
    > >>I recently received a US Mailing encouraging me to switch to a 400 peak
    > >>monthly minute plan with 1000 mobile to mobile minutes, and unlimited

    > >
    > > night
    > >
    > >>and weekend minutes (from a 300 peak monthly minute plan).
    > >>
    > >>They said they would prorate the phase in to the new plan.
    > >>
    > >>In the next monthly billing, I used 292 peak minutes. They somehow
    > >>prorated my monthly minutes at 178 (!!!) and billed me for 112 peak
    > >>time minutes for $ 50.40 !!!
    > >>
    > >>I don't care HOW YOU AVERAGE 300 and 400 minutes, you CANNOT get a number
    > >>less than 300 !!!! Unless you failed fifth grade mathematics! So this
    > >>is clearly a deception deliberately practiced in order to secure unfair
    > >>or unlawful gain. The definition of fraud I just looked up on google!
    > >>
    > >>I called and complained (someone named Cattrell). They refused to refund
    > >>my money and to even admit that it was fraud!
    > >>
    > >>I don't care much about the money. It is now the principle of it. And
    > >>the fact that they are ripping off people all across the nation with the
    > >>same deceptive practice, and I feel it must not only be stopped, they need
    > >>to be made accountable for every instance of it.
    > >>
    > >>I assume that a class action suit and investigation will ensue and return
    > >>the money to all those who have been ripped off in this manner, and with a
    > >>substantial multimillon dollar amount of punitive damages to discourage
    > >>such practices in the future.
    > >>
    > >>I look forward to hearing from you that action is being taken. Any lawyer
    > >>or agent of the law wishing to pursue this case may contact me for

    > >
    > > complete
    > >
    > >>details.
    > >>
    > >>Sincerely,
    > >>
    > >>John
    > >>

    > >
    > >
    > >

    >
    >
  13. Steve Crow

    Steve Crow Guest

    Right, an average between 300 and 400 cannot be less than 300.

    However, prorating does not equate to averaging.




    On Sun, 4 Jan 2004, John wrote:

    > sorry, there is no mathematical basis for any averaging between 300 and 400
    > that is less than 300!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    >
    > sorry you failed math!
    >
    > John
    >
    > Jeffrey Kaplan wrote:
    > > Previously on alt.cellular.verizon, John said:
    > >
    > > ; If they prorate the old and new plan which is the non-deceptive way, then
    > > ; that CANNOT BE LESS than 300 minutes. If they do not do that... IT IS DECEPTIVE!!!
    > > ;
    > > ; sorry, this is very clear,
    > >
    > > What is clear is that you don't understand what "prorate" means. It
    > > means that your plan gets changed, and for the remainder of the current
    > > billing cycle, they divide the number of minutes by the number of days
    > > in the cycle, and then you get however many minutes the number of days
    > > left equals.
    > >
    > > 400 minutes divided by 30 days is 13.3 minutes/day. So, 178 minutes
    > > left divided by 13.3 minutes/day equals 13 days.
    > >
    > > If you were unclear on what prorating your account means, you should
    > > have asked the salescritter when you changed your plan. You should
    > > have actually read the contract and any other information provided for
    > > changing plans prior to committing to the change and asked for
    > > clarification.
    > >
    > > In other words, it's your own fault, and your own problem. If you call
    > > a Verizon center and are +polite+ about it, and you get someone
    > > different this time, and if "Cattrell" didn't note down in their
    > > records that you're a jerk, you might be able to convince them to
    > > forgive some or all of the overage charges.
    > >
    > > Otherwise, learn from your mistake, pay the bill, and move on with your
    > > life.
    > >

    >
    >
  14. Justin

    Justin Guest

    John wrote on [Tue, 06 Jan 2004 03:48:46 GMT]:
    > ok, let me do this analogy for you.
    >
    > You have a vacation plan that give you 3 weeks of vacation and all of it is
    > outstanding. A new plan comes along that will give you 4 weeks of vacation if
    > you respond to the upgrade letter.
    >
    > You do respond in the affirmative.
    >
    > You then get a letter saying thank you for the upgrade and we have prorated
    > your vacation and you now have only 1 week of vacation to use this year. Thank
    > you for upgrading.
    >
    > I am so glad you endorse this method of prorated computation. I cannot.
    >


    How about this then, you call them up and calmly, rationally, ask them
    why they have charged you in this manner, and explain to them that you
    were owed more minutes.

    Better yet, go into the local store.
  15. Giambi

    Giambi Guest

    You understand more than many (ie. John), but you missed one important
    thing.

    You don't actually _pay_ "in advance" to the extent you've suggested.
    Instead, you are _billed_ in advance, with the due date generally being
    about 5 days before the cycle ends. You are sent a bill for the period to
    come (which has in fact already started by the time you receive it -
    actually a form of credit) whose due date is almost parallel with the end of
    it, allowing a few days simply to get the payment in question processed. If
    you choose to pay earlier than the due date, that's your decision to pay
    further "in advance" than is actually required - there's really only about 5
    days that you're being asked to front prior to receiving the service.

    Just as an example, if one were actually forced to fully pay in advance, a
    new account would have to pay for the first month at the point of sale.
    Instead, you are billed for the period of usage concurrent to it actually
    being used. The moral indignity about having "already paid" just really a
    little overblown.

    That said, most reps understand that pro-rates are often poorly understood
    and sometimes even less well explained, if at all. That's why they usually
    work with someone to straighten it all out when the billing system can't do
    it automatically. The key is all in how you approach it and how you act
    towards said rep. You can see for yourself just how well John's approach
    (arrogant while uncomprehending) works out as an alternative.
    --
    Jason G
    Marlins Win. The Gods of Baseball Smite Me Again.
    Remove 'WINNER' to reply.

    "ileen" <ileen@maine.abbreviationforroadrunner.com> wrote in message
    news:ghnKb.55868$q55.7079@twister.nyroc.rr.com...
    >
    > "ShackAttack" <shackattack6089@nospam.yahoo.com> wrote
    > > When you
    > > change your plan, you will have your bill prorated on a 30 day cycle. If
    > > your 1/4 into your cycle and change the plan (up or down in peak

    minutes)
    > > you will only be alloughted 1/4 of your "old" plans peak minutes for the
    > > first 1/4 of your bill cycle. Simple. Fair. Efficient.

    >
    > Yes, that's the way it's done and it may be efficient -- it may even be
    > considered "simple" if it is explained properly -- but I would hardly call
    > it fair.
    >
    > When a customer signs on for a new plan, they pay X amount of dollars *in
    > advance* for a certain amount of minutes. On the first bill, you get
    > pro-rated for any portion of the first month and you also pay for the
    > *entire* next month *in advance*. Nowhere does it say that if you upgrade
    > your plan will you will not be able to use all the minutes that you paid
    > for, um, did I mention IN ADVANCE?
    >
    > So, for example, if you paid for 300 minutes that you are supposed to be
    > able to use anytime during the coming month (and nowhere is it written

    that
    > you should use your minutes "proportionally" to the number of days in the
    > month) and then you upgrade 20 days later to a higher plan it is possible
    > that you will end up with less than 300 usable minutes. Suppose you only
    > used 30 minutes in 2/3 of the month. Then you upgrade to, say, 400

    minutes.
    > Pro-rating the Verizon way gives you an allotment of only 163 minutes for
    > the entire month. (30 minutes used plus 400*10/30 = 163.) Therefore, you
    > are PAYING for two-thirds of a month of a 300 minute plan and one third of

    a
    > month of a 400 minute plan and yet only being allotted 163 minutes -- even
    > though you paid for *300* minutes, IN ADVANCE! How on earth do you
    > consider this FAIR?
    >
    > Here's fair:
    >
    > a.) Going back to the old way and making upgrades retro-active to the

    start
    > of the billing cycle.
    >
    > b.) Instituting a fair formula for prorationing by allowing the customer

    to
    > use ALL of the minutes that they paid for, yes, in f*king advance, for the
    > entire month instead of making the upgrade date a cut-off date.

    Allotted
    > minutes for *entire* month should equal a proportional amount of minutes
    > from first plan plus a proportional amount of minutes from upgraded

    plan --
    > to be used at ANYTIME during the month. In the example above it would

    work
    > like this: 300 minutes * 2/3 month = 200 minutes, plus 400 minutes * 1/3
    > month = 133 minutes, for a total of 333 minutes for that first month.

    See
    > how the total number of minutes nicely falls between the allotment of the
    > two plans yet takes into account the porportionality of when in the month
    > the change in plans went into effect? Now that would be very efficient,
    > even simpler, and most importantly FAIR.
    >
    > Ileen
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
  16. John

    John Guest

    a) and miss the fun of intimidation? more than worth the $50.

    b) take a number and wait in line for half an hour?

    Justin wrote:
    > John wrote on [Tue, 06 Jan 2004 03:48:46 GMT]:
    >
    >>ok, let me do this analogy for you.
    >>
    >>You have a vacation plan that give you 3 weeks of vacation and all of it is
    >>outstanding. A new plan comes along that will give you 4 weeks of vacation if
    >>you respond to the upgrade letter.
    >>
    >>You do respond in the affirmative.
    >>
    >>You then get a letter saying thank you for the upgrade and we have prorated
    >>your vacation and you now have only 1 week of vacation to use this year. Thank
    >>you for upgrading.
    >>
    >>I am so glad you endorse this method of prorated computation. I cannot.
    >>

    >
    >
    > How about this then, you call them up and calmly, rationally, ask them
    > why they have charged you in this manner, and explain to them that you
    > were owed more minutes.
    >
    > Better yet, go into the local store.
  17. Arcy

    Arcy Guest

    "John" <jhyNOSPAM001@earthlink.net> wrote in message
    news:3FFA301B.6030003@earthlink.net...
    > ok, let me do this analogy for you.


    Not necessary. I understand prorating.

    > You have a vacation plan that give you 3 weeks of vacation and all of it

    is
    > outstanding. A new plan comes along that will give you 4 weeks of vacation

    if
    > you respond to the upgrade letter.


    > You do respond in the affirmative.
    >
    > You then get a letter saying thank you for the upgrade and we have

    prorated
    > your vacation and you now have only 1 week of vacation to use this year.

    Thank
    > you for upgrading.
    >
    > I am so glad you endorse this method of prorated computation. I cannot.


    Just where in my post did I say I 'endorsed' it? I 'understand' it, and so
    do others, but never in your 58 ranting posts did you indicate you
    understood prorating nor would you listen to anybody that took the time to
    explain it to you. And I'm not sure if you understand it even at this point.

    Reminds me of a 3-year old kid having a tantrum in the sandbox because his
    playmates won't play his way.

    Do I think this method of prorating is fair? No. But this could all have
    been discussed in a civilized manner without all your rantings - and with a
    few bits of information from you, e.g. how many days into your billing cycle
    did the upgrade take effect.

    Arcy
  18. John

    John Guest

    if their method is flawed, what good are the details?

    I don't care a whit about the $50. I just want to expose the practice. And
    cost them as much as I can for it.

    Debate is the practice of never understanding the flawed arguments of your
    opponent.

    John

    Arcy wrote:
    > "John" <jhyNOSPAM001@earthlink.net> wrote in message
    > news:3FFA301B.6030003@earthlink.net...
    >
    >>ok, let me do this analogy for you.

    >
    >
    > Not necessary. I understand prorating.
    >
    >
    >>You have a vacation plan that give you 3 weeks of vacation and all of it

    >
    > is
    >
    >>outstanding. A new plan comes along that will give you 4 weeks of vacation

    >
    > if
    >
    >>you respond to the upgrade letter.

    >
    >
    >>You do respond in the affirmative.
    >>
    >>You then get a letter saying thank you for the upgrade and we have

    >
    > prorated
    >
    >>your vacation and you now have only 1 week of vacation to use this year.

    >
    > Thank
    >
    >>you for upgrading.
    >>
    >>I am so glad you endorse this method of prorated computation. I cannot.

    >
    >
    > Just where in my post did I say I 'endorsed' it? I 'understand' it, and so
    > do others, but never in your 58 ranting posts did you indicate you
    > understood prorating nor would you listen to anybody that took the time to
    > explain it to you. And I'm not sure if you understand it even at this point.
    >
    > Reminds me of a 3-year old kid having a tantrum in the sandbox because his
    > playmates won't play his way.
    >
    > Do I think this method of prorating is fair? No. But this could all have
    > been discussed in a civilized manner without all your rantings - and with a
    > few bits of information from you, e.g. how many days into your billing cycle
    > did the upgrade take effect.
    >
    > Arcy
    >
    >
  19. Justin

    Justin Guest

    John wrote on [Tue, 06 Jan 2004 04:39:35 GMT]:
    > a) and miss the fun of intimidation? more than worth the $50.


    Oh. So THAT's why you didn't get any assistance in the first place


    > b) take a number and wait in line for half an hour?


    So if you pull the same shit as you pulled here you'd get hauled away by
    the cops.
  20. On Tue, 06 Jan 2004 04:43:59 GMT, John <jhyNOSPAM001@earthlink.net>
    wrote:

    >if their method is flawed, what good are the details?


    Because if you gave the details, we could explain exactly why you were
    charged the $50.40. With that information in hand, you could then
    speak intelligently with a CSR and maybe get the money credited back
    to you. Your attitude when you talk to them will have a lot to do
    with this, too.

    >I don't care a whit about the $50. I just want to expose the practice. And
    >cost them as much as I can for it.


    It is quite evident the practice is out in the open. Many people here
    have described it in excruciating detail. Re-read the thread.

    >Debate is the practice of never understanding the flawed arguments of your
    >opponent.


    But, how do you know their argument is flawed if you don't understand
    it? In a debate, it is quite helpful to know where the other side is
    coming from in order to intelligently counter their arguments.

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